Coastal city buffs

[criZp]

This is where the flaws in the policy card system show themselves. With so precious few policy card slots, it's hard to justify dedicating a slot or two to niches like coastal and colonial cities. With 5's policy tree system, one could dive into the Exploration tree without without sacrificing the science gains from Rationalism, for instance.

that's only a matter of balancing

 

[criZp]

also I am against the idea of adding random production to sea tiles. I mean, are people supposed to be building stuff out of fish bones, or what? no, getting only food and some gold out of the normal sea tile is fine, the sea tiles should not be giving the same yields as land tiles. Coast cities and inland cities gotta have some difference.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

[QUOTE="criZp, post: 15476774, member: 246742" I mean, are people supposed to be building stuff out of fish bones, or what?[/QUOTE]

people get production from mines that mine nothing, so why not?

 

[darkace77450]

So if we're going to make coastal cities even stronger with trade/gold then we need to have a malus to some other systems of generating gold. Or else everyone will just be an economic powerhouse with minimal effort.

If that's not a concern shown in other areas of the game (infinity city sprawl, campus spam, chopping en masse, etc) then I don't see why gold should be singled out.

 

[chazzycat]

where's the option for "coastal cities are fine, they've always been fine since free inquiry, and I have no idea why people always complain about them?"

 

[steveg700]

where's the option for "coastal cities are fine, they've always been fine since free inquiry, and I have no idea why people always complain about them?"

It's in the compost heap, until such a time as someone can make a compelling case for a city having a large number of dead tiles that cannot be utilized for improvements or districts is not suboptimal. Please, have at!

 

[steveg700]

Seems to me what with all those choices in the poll, the low-hanging fruit is missed is simply being able to make further use of water tiles instead of them being dead space. The water park was a good addition. I've discussed such options elsewhere, but I'll reiterate.

Start by making the harbor a more compelling choice. Split the harbor into two districts. One such district is simply a commercial hub on the water, same correlation as between water parks and entertainment enters. Thematically, markets and harbors should co-exist, but as long as they serve a redundant and non-cumulative primary function (providing a trade route), there seems to be little reason in practice to build both. Does anyone actually do this? The mere fact that harbors don't generate Great Merchant points is a reason why I prefer commercial hubs even when harbors are an option.

Then spin off a naval shipyard district for purely military purposes, bringing maritime parity with encampments and airports with customary benefits of boosting production, housing, building fleet and armadas.

Then add some improvements for water tiles. Liang's fisheries were an interesting idea, but without housing and generating only food, they don't seem compelling to me. I'd add wharfs or docks as improvements that can be built along the coast, basically giving everyone something like Indonesia's kumpungs (kumpungs would then need a boost, of course). Someone else suggested a production improvement that can be built over reefs.

 

[historix69]

Yeah, when people talk about "buffing coastal cities", that's the key point to me. One big reason why I like not giving a separate trade route from a Harbor is that too often, I would simply build a harbor for the trade route. Got a one tile lake? Harbor for a free trade route. It seems... cheap to do that. Now, the flipside, you need to make sure that coastal cities have a reason to exist, and that there's actually a reason to settle them. Even a lot of the above ideas of giving coastal cities a bonus for trade routes, does that apply to any city built on the coast? Any city with a harbor? Does the trade route itself have to go through the coast? Does it have to pass by the harbor?

I would allow unlimited number of trade routes but limit their usefulness.
- Trade routes should cost upkeep.
- Transporting food and production should cost food and production and transport costs. (Take it from one city and give it another city.)
- All trades with AI should be realized with trade routes (e.g. Cash and Carry). This would make piracy/naval blockade more interesting.
- The transport efficiency should depend on type and distance. Trade routes over water should have higher capacity for goods, be faster (until invention of railroad), be cheaper and have bigger range. A short trade route should have a higher capacity than a long one, since the ship/caravan can do the travel more often in the same time.
- Sending multiple trade routes to the same profitable foreign city should result in reduced revenues when traders compete with each other. This should depend on competition for traded goods.
- Markets should have a smaller capacity for number of land trade routes than harbors for sea trade routes. Upgraded markets/harbors should allow an increased number of trade routes.

Historically people wanted coastal cities to participate in global trade and earn money or have access to needed resources, food and luxuries.

also I am against the idea of adding random production to sea tiles. I mean, are people supposed to be building stuff out of fish bones, or what? no, getting only food and some gold out of the normal sea tile is fine, the sea tiles should not be giving the same yields as land tiles. Coast cities and inland cities gotta have some difference.

Until late 19th century whale hunting was common. In modern times players could use underwater/deep-sea mines, harvest abyssal nodules (mangan), etc.

 

[Sostratus]

Maybe I'm a couple points too much, but something like this would have me searching coasts to settle to make use of these tiles.

This is the goal I had in mind. You want players to scout an area and then get excited thinking "if I settled there, then i could have a great coastal city if I improved those and built this district there...<repeat for 100 turns>" similar to what happens when you see a great spot for petra or what have you.

 

[acluewithout]

The more I think about it, the more I think the problem with Coastal and Colonial Cities is just that the whole Civ VI economy is terrible.

You don't need hammers, you don't need gold, you don't need Pop[0]. You just need the three Cs - Campuses, City States and Chops[1].

There's nothing you really need hammers for, right? Just enough to build some early units. The only things which always require hammers (not gold) are Walls and Sea Walls. I guess Districts too, but you just chop those.

Gold? We'll. There's no maintenance costs. And what there is never increases unless I build more or upgrade more. Gold can by Great People and it can buy builders. But beyond that it's useless. And I get so, so much of the yellow filthy lucre. I river of gold but I don't even need a drop.

My citizens are worthless. They are a liability draining my happiness. I just need ten to stand in their heads so I can boost my campus.

Oh yes. My campus. Or campi. My empire swims in those and a second river but this time blue. Science is vital to my empire - and the game gives me so much I never worry about it.

I can't imagine it's easy to do at this point. But the game needs a really big re-balancing at the overall economy level. Tweaking an IZ here or a Harbour there is not going to cut it.


[0] Except maybe your Pingala City.
[1] You can add Conquest too if you want.

 

[Victoria]

You just need the three Cs - Campuses, City States and Chops[1].

CCCT....theatres
glad you have made the journey.
The others are all great and immersive but not effective.
You have no doubt seen my rant on hurricanes and also pillaging
The game has become too entangled.
WRT harbors you have to play a few coastal games like with dido or Victoria to feel what is wrong and it is only until you get started. The lack of production early and the inability to get on the right science track when you are being pulled different directions are the killers.
At T100 the coastal city looks OK but is not on par with the inland city on average.
You can still win but it’s not about winning. Just not convinced this can be correctly resolved.
Playing England away from the coast actually does better than going coastal and there is enough in IZ/WOTW/redcoats to make it a slow burning renaissance fun house... without RNDY.
Off the subject but WOTW has some surprising consequences like with stadiums and Airports because they are powered. Hell of a shock to find an airport making as much production as my factory (10 each) and in a way it should just like a harbour should. And ...8 amenities from entertainment made my eyes water a bit.
Production IRL is not about digging minerals out of the ground, it was about being productive. Airports and harbours bring produce in, finished goods.
Anyways, enjoy the game.

 

[Sostratus]

Off the subject but WOTW has some surprising consequences like with stadiums and Airports because they are powered. Hell of a shock to find an airport making as much production as my factory and in a way it should just likeva harbour should.

I can confirm from in game checks that the WotW bonus now applies to:
Shopping mall (+2 , +6 additionally when powered. Also gives +1 Amenity, +1 Amenity more when powered.)
Food market (+4 , +6 additionally when powered)
Airport (+4 , +6 additionally when powered)

I don't think it's applying to amenities. But it does apply to yields, and holy cow, 10 production from an airport? (a second WotW factory!) 10 food from a food market?! Those are crazy numbers!

 

[Victoria]

I don't think it's applying to amenities

You are mistaken... stadiums?
My city show +8 amenities from entertainment. No coliseum, no water park.
+10 gold is like +3 production. Do not be blinded by its shiny colour
But +4 amenities.

 

[Sostratus]

You are mistaken... stadiums?
...
But +4 amenities.

It didn't give the Shopping Mall increased Amenities, at least on the tooltip. I didn't check the stadium as I just loaded a save where i hadn't unlocked it yet.
Is the stadium tooltip showing the extra +4? (+1, +6 additionally when powered?) Because that's a little OP!!

 

[Victoria]

I need to check.
I just noticed the city said +8 from entertainment
1 from arena, 1 from zoo and 6 from stadium fits.
Did you not play your 7 seas game to that age?

Ignoring WOTW there is a lot of production and gold in the game nw, too much one might say.
It’s all become a toy box. Very sim

 

[criZp]

where's the option for "coastal cities are fine, they've always been fine since free inquiry, and I have no idea why people always complain about them?"

so you admit standard coastal cities are not good enough and can only compensate with a particular golden age bonus. firstly, it doesn't really make sense to me that coastal cities get bonus science based on having some fishes around the city... also, what about later era coastal cities that don't have access the this bonus?

 

[historix69]

Coastal cities in real life can also have strategic value.
- You need coastal cities (or cities on big rivers) to build and supply a navy to protect your coast line against enemy invasion.
- You need coastal cities to build transport ships which can transport and supply your troops (maybe except cavalry) at a higher movement rate and lower costs than early roads/streets could do.
(Railroads change the game if you have large enough continents like Eurasia+Africa where travelling by train can be faster than travelling by sea.)
- You need coastal outposts all over the world to supply your fleets.

Except for pangaea maps control of the seven seas should be helpful to dominate/win the game.

In Civ :
- units and fleets do not need supplies.
- movement rate of naval transport is similar to foot troops, so there is no benefit for using the sea route if there is also a land route.
- outposts are only needed for repairing ships.
- You can (diplomatically) trade with civs on distant continents without trade routes.
- Coastal cities lack defence against naval bombardment/invasion.

If you buff naval strategic options in Civ, coastal cities would become more important.

 

[WillowBrook]

The importance of coastal cities can be increased in other indirect ways. For example, if trading of luxuries and strategic resources would only be possible with those civs, where you have at least one established trading post, that would incentivize sending overseas TR, which on its own would incentivize more and earlier exploration and necessity to have at least some coastal cities earlier. Now, early game these goods are moved on magic carpets, it seems.

Yes! Something to link the two types of trade in the game. Doesn't have to be exactly like this, but to be able to trade resources with a civ when you can't even reach their territory is a bit silly.

 

[ChocolateShake]

I think coastal cities should get +1 amenity just for being by the sea. Who doesn't enjoy the fresh air?

I like the idea of giving districts a bonus adjacency for sea resources too.

 

[Sostratus]

Did you not play your 7 seas game to that age?

Well, I had been fighting along war in rough terrain against Korea, perpetually advanced in tech so it was a total slog. I made it into the modern era tech but not civics before I decided to stop. I had my perfect canals already
Besides, I had to play the dutch and germans!