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Coastal Tiles

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, Jul 28, 2019.

  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    I had +100% to processes in my original proposal, but that’s new code:
    Spoiler pdan's pretty plants v3 :

    • Hydro Plant (Requires Aluminum, City must be on a River):
      • +100%:c5production: Production towards Processes
      • 1 Specialist no longer produces :c5unhappy:Urbanization Unhappiness.
      • +5 :c5production:, +2:c5production:1:c5science:1:c5culture: on every River and Lake tile
    • Wind Plant (Requires Aluminum):
      • +100%:c5production: Production towards Processes
      • 1 Specialist no longer produces :c5unhappy:Urbanization Unhappiness.
      • +5 :c5production:, +1 :c5production:1:c5food:1:c5gold: on every tile
    • Nuclear Plant (Requires Uranium):
      • +100%:c5production: Production towards Processes
      • 1 Specialist no longer produces :c5unhappy:Urbanization Unhappiness.
      • +10 :c5production:, +33%:c5production:
      • On Completion, 5% of the :c5production: Cost of Buildings from the Modern Era or Later are converted into :c5greatperson:GEngineer and :c5greatperson:GScientist points
    • Solar Plant (Requires Aluminum, City must be on or next to Desert):
      • +100%:c5production: Production towards Processes
      • 1 Specialist no longer produces :c5unhappy:Urbanization Unhappiness.
      • +5 :c5production:, +10%:c5production:, +2:c5production:2:c5science: on every Desert tile
    • Tidal Plant (Requires Aluminum, City must be on Coast)
      • Unlocked at Ecology (same tech as Solar Plant)
      • +100%:c5production: Production towards Processes
      • 1 Specialist no longer produces :c5unhappy:Urbanization Unhappiness.
      • +10 :c5production:, +2 :c5production:2:c5culture: on every Coast and Ocean tile

    So here's you're options:
    If you want :c5greatperson:GPs and have the strategics, make a Nuclear plant
    If you want Tile Yields and a have lots of Desert / River / Coast, make a Solar / Hydro / Tidal plant
    If you have mixed terrain with no clear, single tile type, make a Wind Plant
    If you are trying to conquer the world, use your strategics to build more units
    If you don't have Aluminum or Uranium, tough cookies.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  2. Deljade

    Deljade Warlord

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    Are you sure you want to cut unhappiness from specialists from 2 to 1? Late game unhappiness can be harsh enough already and those strategics can be in short supply. I'd personally take the extra specialist over some yields.
     
  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  4. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    So what is the motivation behind pushing terrain dependent buildings so late in the game? I mean no disrespect and I love your creativity and design for this game but from a game design perspective, I fail to see what problems this addresses and what the interesting decision is here.

    Why reward river settling with :c5science:/:c5culture: for a decision made 300 turns ago? What is even the theme behind this? Terrain based bonuses are fantastic flavor for pantheons, religious beliefs, early techs. But what is causing a sudden cultural shift from boring gray power plants? I would love to see this concept applied to Zoos, the last "nature" centric building in the tech tree but why power plants?

    After ~250-350 turns to get to information era, there is so much late game bloat already, increasing the complexity for little splashes of culture vs science (that are unlikely to get you a tech or policy more than 1 turn sooner) doesn't seem like what is needed.

    Rather, what makes the game interesting and worth completing is diplomacy, great people, military, happiness, etc. and I just don't see why all this bloat is better than a generic "power plant" vs nuclear power plant.
     
  5. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Spoiler Some tiresome noise :

    Ugh we get it. You don't want to build buildings. Terrain boosts exist and you're somehow really upset about it. You've been heard. You've been heard saying ~80% the same thing 11 (count 'em) times now. I've addressed you in previous comments, so go read those and stop bothering me, please.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  6. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    Even if you're engaging in hyperbole, could you please trim the repeated quotes from your post?
     
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  7. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    You haven't really addressed my question. So far you're only concrete response is "if you don't like terrain restrictions, use the wind plant because it has no restrictions"

    Even if the wind plant is good enough as a generic option, it still doesn't justify so much late game complication. Why are you trying to make the information era so bloated? This isn't even about terrain restrictions in particular. I've come to terms with terrain restrictions and I even offered Zoos as an example of a building more deserving of being split into terrain restricted variations.

    I'm not "bothering" you or anything of the sort, I'm trying ask respectfully as a an admirer of your contributions to this mod. You're a veteran player so please enlighten me, what exactly is the issue that would be addressed by your proposal and how do you justify late game bloat vs simplicity?
     
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  8. Deljade

    Deljade Warlord

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    Idunno man, I think the plants are okay as they are I think they allow these crucial specialists in late game huge cities and give some decent yields as they are, there's already enough production I feel to add more % modifiers on top. Maybe there could be something like a "Coastal Resort" (provided for free by Prora maybe?) building which could give culture and tourism and gold to coastal tiles but can't be built if there's a plant in the city, cause it ruins the landscape and environment and stuff y'know. I also still think the idea of improvements on coastal tiles is pretty okay. The unfinished polder model looks a lot like actual fish farms and maybe with some tweaking it could work.
     

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  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Fine, condensed it into a spoiler. For the benefit of anyone else reading this, I'll summarize my thought on this matter here:
    • Humanity didn't magically become divorced from its environment in the industrial era; that has been one of the hardest lessons learned in the late 20th and early 21st centuries. Removing tile yields on later eras on the principle that they reflect no real-world realities is either, a) pushing a dangerous, a-factual agenda or b) the babbling of an intensely ignorant person. As an biologist by discipline, I actually harbour a unique distaste for anyone ready to take that line of reasoning. With the addition of a tidal plant there is complete coverage for tile types, and if you don't want to play that game there's nuclear and wind plants. If the choice is between no late-game tile-dependencies or ensuring complete coverage I will pick complete coverage, and all the complexity that it requires to implement that. Every. Time.
    • Arguing for the removal of hydro, solar, and wind plants as a way of slimming down the tech tree does 3 things I am uncomfortable with:
      • It reduces the original number of buildings offered by the vanilla game, and there better be a damn good reason to remove buildings after VP has added so many.
      • It removes someone's wind plant artwork that was so generously donated to the VP mod. Probably by Wodhann, since many of VP's unique art assets are his.
      • It enforces a sort of amnesia sourrounding the existence of green energy. Notice that @Bromar1 isn't advocating for the removal of the coal plant, just 2 of the newest green energy technologies and 1 really old one (hydro). As if the satisfaction of humanity's energy needs somehow ends with nuclear, and we need not acknowledge the existence of low-impact energy sources of any kind.
    • Bromar suggested that having 5 mutually exclusive buildings is just too hard for his brain. Furthermore, 3 of them are locked to specific city locations (desert, river, coast). Bromar pushes further to suggest that these last 20-40 turns worth of yields from these plants will influence settling decisions all the way back in ancient. All of these arguments are, to me, ridiculous.
      • Sorry to hear 5 choices is too hard for you.... I don't know how or why I should attempt a rebuttal against that criticism, but being you sounds very difficult if 5 options is so paralyzing that you need to tell me about it 11 times.
      • Re: locking some buildings to specific terrain, see my first point
      • Re: being factored into settling locations, if you don't like it build wind plants or none of them at all. I don't care. Maybe they SHOULD affect your long-term city planning strategy, since planning ahead is a major aspect of this game? Or maybe the idea that you are choosing between 30 turns of 2:c5culture:, 1:c5culture:1:c5science:, and 2:c5science: on surrounding tiles is so inconsequential that it's just impossible to take this gripe seriously, when measured against the previous 300 turns of yields from all other sources.
    • Bromar also suggested there's will be too many yields on terrain now. my proposed changes to the plants actually reduce the number of yields on terrain in comparison to the current wind plant (2:c5production:2:c5gold:2:c5science: on plains and grassland). Soo... you're welcome? Not that I care, because this gripe was silly in the first place. No one ever complained that wind plants were too good before, they complained that hydro sucked in comparison. People also still, reliably picked settling on rivers for their early bonuses (water mills, baths, land trade bonus), rather than hold out for the 1 non-river building in Atomic era.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  10. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    Wow, this is some next level extrapolation. Yep, you figured me out, I'm a climate change denying, conspiracy nut trying to push my dirty coal money agenda into this game mod.

    Are you even listening to yourself? I have taken every measure to be as polite and respectful as possible yet you are convinced this is some kind of personal attack. All the while you dismiss any of my arguments as if I'm too stupid to handle your "genius" design.
     
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    That's why I was content to leave it at "you're bothering me", but you pushed for a proper explanation. And my proper explanation is that you come off as either a climate change skeptic, or a pointless contrarian. Either way, I invite you to move on cause I've spent enough time on you, thanks.
     
  12. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    You've spent plenty of time making wild, unwarranted accusations. I think your decision to use personal attacks in response to questions regarding game design and game philosophy shows that you're more interested in getting your pet project affirmed than the actual quality of the mod. This is your "solution looking for a problem" and you've sunk real low to try to push it
     
  13. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    And I would invite you to calm yourself down. Bromar doesn’t agree with your idea. Fine, feel free to disagree, but that disagreement does not warrant the attitude or the attacks. If your upset that you can’t change the persons mind...than just ignore them.

    On my side, my biggest disagreement is the notion of more yields for buildings this late in the game. It just takes too much to move the needle at this point, so I’m not sure if these buildings are actually providing yields of value in their current state. I personally am more in favor of big instance bonuses. Give me a GP or a golden age, or instant build a unit or something. Something that will matter for the last 40 turns of the game.
     
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  14. Noob Fanboy

    Noob Fanboy Warlord

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    So, you ask for people opinions, and then insult the people back if you don't like their opinions. What was the point of asking opinions in the first place?
     
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  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Let's keep this civil, guys. I don't think @Bromar1 is pushing an agenda any more than you @pineappledan (which is to say, I don't think agenda is at stake here).

    I fall into two frames of mind on this:

    1. More buildings for the sake of more is not a great idea. Same goes for more rules, systems, etc.
    2. The current set of power plant buildings, most of which are vanilla buildings, offer an incomplete and asymmetric collection of bonuses meant to represent 'modern electrical infrastructure' and lack a coherent purpose.

    Finding a solution that satisfies both is important.

    G
     
  16. Noob Fanboy

    Noob Fanboy Warlord

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    What if instead of flat values to tile yields, or flat ammounts of culture, science, golden age points, etc. We put a % modifier apart from production to each type of plant?.

    It's simpler than balancing tile yields (specially if they're terrain dependent), and you can choose between multiple options to address some weakness in the late game (leaving the option to choice).

    EDIT:

    Just an example:

    1) Military unit production %
    2) Nukes production% with 1 extra uranium per plant
    3) Culture %
    4) Science %
    5) Gold% and Production%
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
  17. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    This is exactly my point. It's not that I hate the idea of multiple buildings but rather that decision points for that late in the game need to be more interesting and impactful. Choosing between +10 science or +10 culture that late in the game is a snoozefest. Choosing between powerful instant bonuses like GAP or temporary emergency happiness or unit cap. Just flat yields adds to the monotony of coasting to the finish line. We don't need more flavors of the same building clogging up the tech tree. We need powerful swingy options to keep the tensions high through the end
     
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  18. Deljade

    Deljade Warlord

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    Why do we insist that the yields from, say, a Wind Plant are unimportant?
    I have to talk for my own games here of course and I tend to grow my cities big, but let's assume a late game city of 25 population by that time. And let's assume it's on the appropriate terrain for the Wind Plant ie. no or little tundras, desert and snow. How many non specialists would you be working in that city? I'd say 15 is a reasonable number for a city of that size. Probably more if we're being honest because that will most likely be the 4th or 5th or even later city that you've settled. That would mean a total of 35 :c5production: production, 30 :c5science: science and 30 :c5gold: gold for a medium sized city every turn. It's like an extra 1 and a half of each of the appropriate great person improvements, with any multipliers and in the depth of 70 turns (playing on epic myself) these will yield at least 2 extra units, an extra tech and a bunch of gold -especially important yields for industry tree- . And there is also the 2 free specialists which I've tried to stretch feel very important.
    I have felt the impact of building these wind plants and it's not as small as you make it seem.

    What I do agree with is that Hydro Plants are underwhelming. In a good scenario where a city is build on a river that passes through it from one edge of the border to the other, that provides for around 16 tiles of river. Many of these cities, however, will be on a delta or smaller river so it will have much less river tiles. I think it would be reasonable to buff the tile yields of Hydro Plant to +3 :c5production:, +3 :c5food: and +3:c5science: per river tile, also considering it's an earlier and more efficient type of power station and somewhat more situational. To compensate though, Wind Plants could reasonably be made to also affect coast tiles but be moved to the Ecology tech along with Solar Plants. After all, many coastal areas are great for wind parks!
     

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  19. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    I don't think more yields is the best way. % modifiers make your top yields better and incentivize "coasting". I think this is the better point:

    Terrain dependent yields are always going to be harder to balance. The late game needs options to try make final attempts at victory without also rewarding you for already being ahead in science. If you rush the tech before everyone else and get +10% science, well then you're just gonna autopilot to victory 10% faster.

    I think a more interesting tension would be having to choose between:
    A) happiness and golden age boost
    B) instant engineers and scientists flat GPPs funneled to the capital
    C) production bonuses towards military/free units and supply

    If you rush to tech going tall, B) might not be the best, you need lots of GPP and only few cities to take advantage of. A) seems very strong but you might consider going with C) to pre-emptively strike down opponents. Conversely if you are wide, you might want to rush B) since you have low GPP cost and lots of cities or C) if you need to stabilize your happiness

    This is all hypothetical sketching but I kinda see a rock paper scissors dynamic where you weigh military power vs GP vs happiness/GA that is more independent of tall vs wide and terrain
     
  20. Noob Fanboy

    Noob Fanboy Warlord

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    The thing is, golden age boost is just a %culture modifier, a %production bonus alongside with a +flat gold bonus. Technically golden age boost is just making your top yields better. Actually a %science or %culture is stacking less yields if the percentage is low enough.

    I like the production bonus to military and the GPP idea though. The rock paper scissors dynamic can work with %science or %culture, we can even have something like +three population. Just not golden age points, stadiums are good enough for that and golden age is pretty much broken enough.
     

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