Code of Laws Tech path vs Archery/Iron/Myst

[Ballazic]

There has been alot of discussion lately about the tech path and were we are going. Daveshack of the tribal faction (among others) wants us to go after code of laws. While this is a critical tech in the long run. He is challenging the Philosophers faction leaning to wards researching Archery/Iron/Myst.

While it may not be in that order. I would like to hear the input of people in what we should research. I choose not to set up a poll, because i think this issue should be less about politics and more about reason and logic.

 

[DaveShack]

The stated goal of the triad is to make war against Spain and capture her cities. We cannot afford to hold on to the spoils of such a war under the excessive maintenance costs that having so many cities would introduce. We're talking about building 3 cities, and capturing 3-4, giving an empire size of 6-7. At this size, we need at least 3 of the cities to have courthouses in order to be able to afford the city maintenance.

There has been talk of forgoing Confucianism because we can capture the Spanish holy city and get religion that way. This overlooks the idea of having two religions and spreading both to all our cities. If we have two religions and build two shrines, we offset 2gpt per city in maintenance, allowing a larger empire. It is not too late to get Confucianism, if we go directly to it.

This discussion is not about politics, it is about strategy. There is no strategic value for the Archery/Iron/Myst tech combo. We have bronze, all we need to do is quickly build a city where we can take it. This reduces the need for iron, until we get the rest of the techs needed for Samurai. Mysticism is already on the CoL path, so it's likely to be researched either way. Whether we do archery before or after CoL is of little meaning if our military plans are offensive in nature. Archers help us only if we expect to be defending cities, and horse archers have an advantage over chariots generally when facing catapults in place of axemen. Construction is far away, so the horse archer's strength is muted.

My argument is one of logic. The path I support has advantages over the other suggested paths.

 

[Diamondeye]

Another point to go Mysticism would be that a founded city would be faster to culturepop, therefore being able to settle it with Copper in the outer ring, if the spot is better -, or -wise. And with horses and copper, we do not need either Iron Working or Archery just yet.

 

[NZL]

Mysticism: no dilemma, both sides want this.
Archery: we may plan an offensive war, but let's not forget the barbarians shall we
Iron Working: For me personally not an immediate must. We can do with Iron Working after CoL.
CoL: Long run very valuable tech.

Reality check / Roleplay:
Not many governments think of long term goals in the real world. They all want to get re-elected. However CoL is a very valuable tech in the long run, why should any government invest in something when it only benefits governments coming after the current one. Iron Working is one of immediate impact, unlocking Swordmen and Iron locations, and is a typical warmonger tech [which is also a part why Provo is choosing this tech, staying in character of being a Warlord Faction member].

Another point to go Mysticism would be that a founded city would be faster to culturepop, therefore being able to settle it with Copper in the outer ring, if the spot is better -, or -wise. And with horses and copper, we do not need either Iron Working or Archery just yet.

Diamondeye, we have libraries for that

My opinion: CoL gameplay wise. IW roleplay wise.

Oh, and a little PS: I don't tolerate rebellion

 

[Provolution]

I think it is good for our intel analysis as well, to know where things are. This impacts military balance, future war objectives, accessible production for cities as well as potential for iron-based wonders or not.

A good way to handle the present situation, is to research Archery and Mysticism first, since there is broad consensus about it, and then have a new technology discussion once we know more. This is the balanced, not the "in-character" rabid warlord Provo talking. I am playing this as an entertainment game, not a reenactment of a session from C-Span, as I suspect some do here

Anyhow, IW is not a bad choice, but we can take Archery and Mysticism first.

We really should not let Barbarians kill us off.

 

[Ballazic]

First of all, the invasion plan is longterm. By the time we do have the combo done, and have taken over spain we will have a closer shot to get CoL. We will research it when we need to, its not good to get a building your not going to use for awhile, unless you want to go through a period of anarchy and toss a former regime. Also do you honestly think facing the religious civs in our world that we are going to be the first to CoL, on monarchy, i think the chances are minimal and not high enough to soley justify an early rush to CoL. Yes we are going to have 6ish civs in a not so far distant future. but by the time we get there we will easily have researched all three of those techs and probably more, very good chance some will be prereqs for CoL. Agian why go straight for a tech that is not needed so much for this era of smaller largely undeveloped cities.

On the Iron working issue, firstly it is going to take awhile for us to even connect with bronze not to mention that axemen are a very shortermed infantry solution. They have lesser strength then axemen and while they have a strong bonus agianst infrantry there bonus is negated agiianst archers-horsemen etc. I think if we are planning an offensive war it would be better to build a unit that is stronger in general ((6 strength) and that has a bonus agianst cities which we are planning on taking, coupled with horsemen we be formidable to any bronze working units or archers we encounter. Knowing where iron is early can help us prevent spain from acquiring iron. Which will insure longterm supramacy. Enough said about that.

While you are correct that horse archers have an advantage agianst catapults the fact that we have a classical era unit in the bronze age is an advantage in itself, horsemen have a high strength rating and 2 movement rating. To say their strength is muted is ignorant at best. The fact is they are shock troops and have the speed to surprise a nation and take it off guard.

I think the idea that represents best why i argue agianst CoL tech line is that it is very longterm goal requiring many techs just to research it. This isn't very fluid, and we may find ourselves middle of it knowing we need to divert. Is it worth neglecting defence and potentialy lucrative exspansion opportunity for a religion we probably won't get, buildings we will build later, and a chance for the minority to throw down the present govt.

While we will pursue many of preceding techs to CoL we don't want to tie ourselves down. Theres still a lot we don't know about our opponents and even this war plan is tentative.


Lastly you said that archers are not neccassary unless you need to defend from someone. This comment is interesting at best. I would argue that the AI senses weakness and chooses the civ that is weakest to invade. Also barbarians are always a threat. This iisn't noble level. In monarch we are required to be alot more careful for potential threats. The time is now to defend our cities and our future.

 

[Provolution]

I think the most wise middle-ground is Archery and Mysticism. Aluminum Knight himself used the argument of Archery now as the thing that made Paradise Hills the chosen site, due to self defense. Please let us respect AKs reasoning and apply that. We also need archery for Horseman Archers, so I do not really understand Daveshacks aversion for Archery, now that he argued FOR Horseman Archers and AGAINST Archers?????

After Mysticism we reassess our goals once again, it may even be we are going a route we did not think of, due to in-game developments.

 

[blastoidstalker]

I agree with many here that archery shoyuld be the next tech, more for horse archers than regular archers.

The reason for COL immediate in my opinion is for the religion. The courthouses will be usefull eventualy, but that is later. If we plan to get spain's cities, which I think we should, then it is a good tech to research while we are at war with her.

Since we can build libraries,I do not see trhe need for mysticism yet

IW could give us a new unit if lucky and effect settlement plans. Moderately usefull short term.


so I would go Archery, IW, Mysticism. then COL

 

[fed1943]

Both paths have merit, but must have fit with new sites.
Because IW only allows swordmen and BW axes and spears
If the relevant resource is connected.
So, to defend the metals research and also a dye overlaping
city looks strange IMHO.
Best regards,

 

[Diamondeye]

Reality check / Roleplay:
Not many governments think of long term goals in the real world. They all want to get re-elected. However CoL is a very valuable tech in the long run, why should any government invest in something when it only benefits governments coming after the current one. Iron Working is one of immediate impact, unlocking Swordmen and Iron locations, and is a typical warmonger tech [which is also a part why Provo is choosing this tech, staying in character of being a Warlord Faction member].

I can clearly see the perspective in this; and you should be able to see why I am pointing at CoL and Mysticism then.

Diamondeye, we have libraries for that

and what are they? 3 times the compared to Monuments?
And a religion could provide that crucial early culture pop...

My opinion: CoL gameplay wise. IW roleplay wise.

Why IW roleplaywise? I'd say we believe we have the best weapons there is, while we don't have any kind of laws or systematizing of society. Priesthood would probably cover this, but CoL is definately worth it RPwise, also because of the religion.

 

[NZL]

A religion could indeed provide that crucial early culture pop, but that doesn't say we have to found one.

IW roleplaywise because i'm leader of Warlord Faction and thus roleplaywise i need to support warmongering techs. Also, governments in the 'real world' always go for short term solutions by which they will be remembered, thus again: IW is short term, CoL is long term. Therefore: IW is more close to my roleplay part since the real benefits of CoL are not for the current Prime Faction/Coalition, but for the next ones.

Edit-addon: I'd rather be remembered at the end of the demogame as "part of the coalition that conquered Spain" than "part of the coalition that made the game easier for Faction .<whoever>."

 

[AluminumKnight]

I support Archery -> Mysticism. I think that after that is too far ahead to call right now. We could continue on our way to CoL, or grab IW at that point. Roleplay-wise, like Diamondeye said, our civilization is sorely lacking in laws and guidance for our people. We cannot continue to forge ahead in military techs, or we're no better than the barbarians!

Regardless, we must research Archery now. We need it for Horse Archers, and we need it for barb defense while our army is out conquering Spain for the glory of Arete.

 

[Lord Civius]

My 2 cents. I think going for CoL is too expensive. The Gods have blessed us with 3 free techs so lets not go crazy heading right for the most expensive tech of the moment and lose our lead. Assuming we settle the copper/ivory city (which I am in favor of) then we will have War Elephants (8 strength). This more than makes up for a Swordsmans base city attack. We also have axes to counter spearmen. Horse Archers will be a benefit but are not a necessity at the moment.

Economically the war will be costly so more important than courthouses we need to build cottages. The sooner the better. Don't get me wrong courthouses are important but they are not the first building I construct in a new or conquered city. So I favor some cheap and very crucial techs like Pottery, Mysticism, Archery and Sailing over a long term, expensive, semi-important, gut-wrenchingly expensive tech like CoL for now.

War Elephants and Axes will give us Barcelona,
Barcelona will give us our Religion.IMHO

 

[Diamondeye]

Archery->Mysticism, then perhaps Pottery before going CoL (or IW, let's see how it turns out) would be fine for me. I have no problems in having the only religion we have by conquering. I would dare to mention that it might be proper if Protectors got the Holy City when we take it, but that is merely speculation. Let's get Archery and then see how things turn out. I mean, we could Oracle slingshot it aswell...

 

[blastoidstalker]

for war elephants we need construction, which we do not have, right?

This is why we need archery. We should be able to take out hatty with either horse archers and axes or horse archers and swords.

 

[Joe Harker]

First of all the only way we can decide this is by saying are we going to war with Spain, there seems to be a concenus on that so then, why archery and MYS. I can personally see the arguement for iron working, i suspect there may well be iron nearby the capital seeing the relative distance the coppers are from us and swordsmen are very useful against archers in cities pre catapults. horse archers have a -10% strength loss when assualting cities, meaning a well promoted archer in a biggish city would defeat it.
So archery doesn't really give us too much as an edge. CoL is going to be very important if only for the courthouses so i would suggest, that if we agree to get the religion from Spain that we research IW and then beeline to CoL (it will take time to build up a force and with any luck enough time for CoL to be researched)

Archery: we may plan an offensive war, but let's not forget the barbarians shall we

Axemen are far better and less likely to die, we would only need one in each area, where i would feel worried (for lack of a better, easy to spell world ) if we only had one archer covering an area.

 

[blastoidstalker]

First of all the only way we can decide this is by saying are we going to war with Spain, there seems to be a concenus on that so then, why archery and MYS. I can personally see the arguement for iron working, i suspect there may well be iron nearby the capital seeing the relative distance the coppers are from us and swordsmen are very useful against archers in cities pre catapults. horse archers have a -10% strength loss when assualting cities, meaning a well promoted archer in a biggish city would defeat it.
So archery doesn't really give us too much as an edge. CoL is going to be very important if only for the courthouses so i would suggest, that if we agree to get the religion from Spain that we research IW and then beeline to CoL (it will take time to build up a force and with any luck enough time for CoL to be researched)

I think it would be a huge mistake not to get archery ASAP.
I think you have to much of a focus on using horse archers as city raiders and not as counterattack units and pillagers.
With 2 movement points and some roads, they can take out pretty much anything spain will throw at us and defend our resources while based in cities. This allows us to have less units in our cities on defense and not waste units on guarding stratigic resources (our future copper and horses). They also will be the first wave and will take out the enemies stratigic resources.

If we want to use horse archers to attack cityies we need to promote thewm witrh the flank promotion, this makes them immune to first stirkes and allows them to withdraw from combat, make them function in a similar way to a catapult but without collaterial damage. I do not neccessarily recoomend doing this unless desperate, but it does work.

 

[AluminumKnight]

IMO, we're wasting our pop of HBR if we don't tech Archery and build Horse Archers, which are higher strength than anything the AI will throw at us right now and more mobile.

 

[blastoidstalker]

I agree. We should research archery, pop out a couple of horse archers and lay waste to spain's improvements ASAP. Weaken them now and they will be easy to conquer later.

 

[Lord Civius]

for war elephants we need construction, which we do not have, right?

This is why we need archery. We should be able to take out hatty with either horse archers and axes or horse archers and swords.

Yes it seems I have overlooked the obvious. Construction is too far away IMO to have any effect on the hatty war. So I would say Archery/pottery/IW/Mysticism. Maybe it would be wise to get Alphabet instead of Myst as we are preparing for war to trade and get some religious techs from Lincoln pre-invasion. Hatty and Lincoln are pleased with each other so once we declare war on Hatty we will probably not able to trade with Lincoln until we get on better terms.