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CoL Amendment - Section 8, Vacancies & Appointments

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Demo Game: Citizens' started by DaveShack, May 1, 2006.

  1. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Some people (well, one person) claim that the law on vacancies means something different that what it actually does mean. While that one person's opinion is just as wrong as it's possible to be for such a simple subject, I guess I'll give the topic the full treatment so he can get his jollies on having work to do in his current DG job.

    The point of contention

    Somehow, our good, but misguided, friend has gotton it into his head that it's important to wait for three days before making an appointment to a vacant office? Well, that's not true, he now claims he doesn't really care about the wait time itself but just following what is written. Anyway, what we previously decided was:
    • If someone without an office wants a job, that person should get it.
    • If we can't find anybody who doesn't have an office and wants the job, then we should allow someone with a job to move into it.
    • We want to give people without offices 3 days to apply for the job, before allowing someone who currently has an office to switch positions, or pick up a 2nd position.
    • If we do have an applicant without a present position, the appointing official may not choose someone who already has a position.
    What does the bolded point in the above list mean? How does it affect the other points in the list? The answer is simple.

    • The reason we have the 3 days is not to force the appointing official to wait 3 days, if there is an applicant who doesn't currently have a position. The 3 days wait is only there for the case where no applicants who don't have a position come forward.
    The existing law (emphasis on the relevant parts added by color coding)

    C) Vacancies

    I. A Vacancy occurs when an office is empty due to the office holder resigning, judicial action, impeachment, if no citizen ran for election for that office or when a new office is created.
    II. Triumvirate Vacancies
    IIA. If there is a Vacancy in the Triumvirate, the President shall nominate a citizen to that office. If the Presidency is Vacant, the Secretary of State, or Secretary of War if the Secretary of State is also Vacant, shall nominate a citizen to that office. The citizen must accept the nomination prior any further steps.​
    IIB. The Judiciary shall confirm the appointment. If confirmed, the citizen takes office immediately. If not confirmed, a different citizen must be nominated.​
    IIC. The nominee may be any citizen that does not currently hold a Triumvirate or Judicial position. If the nominee holds another office, they must resign immediately upon confirmation.​
    IID. This appointment may not be challenged by a confirmation poll.​
    III. Cabinet Vacancies
    IIIA. The President must offer the position to the Deputy, if there is one.​
    IIIB. If there is no deputy, the President must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the President within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the President may appoint any citizen to the office.
    IIIC. This appointment may be challenged by a confirmation poll.​
    IV. Governor Vacancies
    IVA. The Governors Council must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the Council within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the Council may appoint any citizen to the office.
    IVB. If there is no Governors Council, the Minister of Interior must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the Minister of Interior within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the Minister of Interior may appoint any citizen to the office.
    V. Judicial Vacancies
    VA. The President must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the President within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the President may appoint any citizen to the office.
    VB. This appointment may be challenged by a confirmation poll.​
    VI. All vacancy appointments which are subject to a confirmation poll are provisional until the time for a confirmation poll has passed, or when a confirmation poll for that appointment concludes with a 'Yes' majority.

    VIA.
    Any citizen may post a confirmation poll for an appointment to a Vacant office within 48 hours of the appointment. This must be a private poll, asking the question "Should the appointment of <citizen name> as <office> be confirmed", with the options Yes, No and Abstain. This poll must last for 3 days. If the poll closes with more no votes than yes votes, the appointment is reversed. This citizen may not be appointed to that office again that term. The appointee holds the office and is free to exercize the full powers of the office until such time as the appointment is reversed.
    VIB. A Citizen who holds office may apply for a new office before the 72 hour waiting period provided they write in their application that they will resign from their current office. That citizen does not have to resign until the provisional period passes.​
    VII. Being a member of the Designated Player Pool is not considered holding an office and thus is not counted against a Citizen in terms of being able to run for and hold multiple offices.

    End of current law

    Proposed new law, with new text in magenta.


    C) Vacancies

    I. A Vacancy occurs when an office is empty due to the office holder resigning, judicial action, impeachment, if no citizen ran for election for that office or when a new office is created.
    II. Triumvirate Vacancies
    IIA. If there is a Vacancy in the Triumvirate, the President shall nominate a citizen to that office. If the Presidency is Vacant, the Secretary of State, or Secretary of War if the Secretary of State is also Vacant, shall nominate a citizen to that office. The citizen must accept the nomination prior any further steps.​
    IIB. The Judiciary shall confirm the appointment. If confirmed, the citizen takes office immediately. If not confirmed, a different citizen must be nominated.​
    IIC. The nominee may be any citizen that does not currently hold a Triumvirate or Judicial position. If the nominee holds another office, they must resign immediately upon confirmation.​
    IID. This appointment may not be challenged by a confirmation poll.​
    III. Cabinet Vacancies
    IIIA. The President must offer the position to the Deputy, if there is one.​
    IIIB. If there is no deputy, the President must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. The President may appoint someone who does not currently hold an office at any point in time after the request for applications is posted, provided the appointee does not currently hold an office. If no such citizen contacts the President within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the President may appoint any citizen to the office.
    IIIC. This appointment may be challenged by a confirmation poll.​
    IV. Governor Vacancies
    IVA. The Governors Council must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. The Council may appoint someone who does not currently hold an office at any point in time after the request for applications is posted, provided the appointee does not currently hold an office. If no such citizen contacts the Council within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the Council may appoint any citizen to the office.
    IVB. If there is no Governors Council, the Minister of Interior must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. If no such citizen contacts the Minister of Interior within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the Minister of Interior may appoint any citizen to the office.
    V. Judicial Vacancies
    VA. The President must request interested citizens that do not currently hold office to contact them. The President may appoint someone who does not currently hold an office at any point in time after the request for applications is posted, provided the appointee does not currently hold an office. If no such citizen contacts the President within 72 hours of the office being declared Vacant, the President may appoint any citizen to the office.
    VB. This appointment may be challenged by a confirmation poll.​
    VI. All vacancy appointments which are subject to a confirmation poll are provisional until the time for a confirmation poll has passed, or when a confirmation poll for that appointment concludes with a 'Yes' majority.

    VIA.
    Any citizen may post a confirmation poll for an appointment to a Vacant office within 48 hours of the appointment. This must be a private poll, asking the question "Should the appointment of <citizen name> as <office> be confirmed", with the options Yes, No and Abstain. This poll must last for 3 days. If the poll closes with more no votes than yes votes, the appointment is reversed. This citizen may not be appointed to that office again that term. The appointee holds the office and is free to exercize the full powers of the office until such time as the appointment is reversed.
    VIB. A Citizen who holds office may apply for a new office before the 72 hour waiting period provided they write in their application that they will resign from their current office. That citizen does not have to resign until the provisional period passes.​
    VII. Being a member of the Designated Player Pool is not considered holding an office and thus is not counted against a Citizen in terms of being able to run for and hold multiple offices.
     
  2. BCLG100

    BCLG100 Music Master

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    So to sum up?- because im not sure what you mean :)
     
  3. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Before the change, if someone doesn't have a job and wants one, they could be appointed immediately but Donsig will pitch a fit about not waiting, refuse to recognize the appointment, and post a confirmation poll every time.

    After the change, the appointment can be done immediately and Donsig won't be able to pitch a fit about the wait time, and might not post a confirmation poll for every one.
     
  4. robboo

    robboo Deity

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    I agree Dave Shack..sounds good to stop the "Donsig-ing" of the appointments.
     
  5. BCLG100

    BCLG100 Music Master

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    ok cool i agree then, anything to get this game moving.
     
  6. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Now that we're having a citizen discussion on this maybe I should state what I think about all this. I appreciate you speaking for me Mr. President but I'll handle that from now on, ok? :)

    If we're going to have a waiting period it should be four days not three. Give people a chance to take the weekend off, I always say. I really don't think we should have a waiting period for filling established vacancies, but it IS there.

    Wouldn't it be much simpler and less open to interpretation if we simply said the appointing official must appoint a citizen who does not hold another office at the time the appointment is made? Let the appointing official designate the procedure to be used. Why cloud the issue with the case where the appointing official can't find a non-office holder who wants the job? If we actaully get to that point there won't be enough of us left to argue over it to make a difference, now will there?

    While we're taking a fresh look at this monstrosity of a law why don't we see what can be done to consolidate it. Do we really need four seperate sub-sections? Can't we just have one section detailing the process with sub-sections listing exceptions? Here's a stab at reworking this law. It's not as concise as I'd like it to be but one cannot be concise when trying to cover all bases.

    C) Vacancies
    I. A Vacancy occurs when an office is empty due to the office holder resigning, judicial action, impeachment, if no citizen ran for election for that office or when a new office is created. Vacancies are to be filled either by deputies or via appointment as outlined in the following subsections.

    A. Deputies
    i. If a deputy exists for the vacant office and said deputy does not hold another office then said deputy automatically promotes to to vacant office.
    ii. If a deputy exists for the vacant office but said deputy already holds another office then the deputy may accept promotion to the vacant office only by first resigning his or her other office. The deputy has 72 hours from the time the time the office is declared vacant to resign the first office and accept the second.
    iii. If no deputy exists or the existing deputy publicly declines the vacant office, then the vacant office shall be filled via appointment.

    B. Appointments
    i. Appointing officials
    a. The Secretary of State makes appointments to the office of President. If the Secretary of State office and the office of President are both vacant then the Secretary of War shall appoint a President. If all Trimvirate offices are vacant then we run the country without them until the next election cycle.
    b. The President makes appointments to vacant Triumvirate, Cabinet and Judicial positions.
    c. The Governor's Council makes appointments to vacant governorships.
    ii. Eligibility for vacant office
    a. Only citizens not holding an office at the time of the appointment are eligible to be appointed to a vacant office.
    b. Any citizen desiring to be eligible for appointment to a vacant office may resign his or her current office.
    iii. Confirmation
    a. Triumvirate appointees are subject to confirmation by the Judiciary.
    b. Cabinet and Judicial appointees are subject to confirmation polls. Any citizen may post a confirmation poll for an appointment to the vacant office within 48 hours of the appointment. This must be a private poll, asking the question "Should the appointment of <citizen name> as <office> be confirmed", with the options Yes, No and Abstain. This poll must last for 3 days. If the poll closes with more no votes than yes votes, the appointment is reversed. This citizen may not be appointed to that office again that term. The appointee holds the office and is free to exercize the full powers of the office until such time as the appointment is reversed.
    c. Gubernatorial appointees are not subject to any confirmation process.

    C. Designated players
    i. Being a member of the Designated Player Pool is not considered holding an office and thus is not counted against a Citizen in terms of being able to run for and hold multiple offices.
     
  7. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    ** Looks outside to see if any ice is forming...

    Nope, hell hasn't frozen over. :lol:

    Whaddaya know, it's a proposal to fix something... ;)

    Good thought but maybe it doesn't go far enough. Work prevents me from coming back with a real response but in general we could just have the President appoint all vacancies, with just one exception when it's the Presidency which is vacant.

    Again, the only reason the waiting period is there now is to permit newcomers a chance at good positions. You can trust me to handle that right, it's the next Presidents you need to be concerned with. If you trust everyone, then of course it should be taken out, no argument from me on that point.
     
  8. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    That would simplify matters greatly. I did not include the idea in my proposal because I was merely trying to come up with proposed wording that accurately reflected what you stated was the intent behind the original law without removing anything besides the 72 hour period. I can reword the proposal so that the president appoints governors rather than the Governor's Council. (Please note that any current gubernatorial vacancies will have to be handled via the existing law.)

    What should be the process for appointing a president? Having a chain of command in the Tri do it is sloppy. How about having the Governor's Council (or senior gov is there is no council) appoint the Pres? As I wrote that proposal I wondered what happens if the Tri is recalled? Do we have a mechanism in place to replace the Tri? If not perhaps we should address that now. An alternative to appointing a Pres would be having the Censor hold special nominations and a special election.

    Finally, if we want to appoint DPs the logical place to add it is here. We could give the appointment power to the pres and could make it subject to either citizen or judicial confirmation. I would suggest a restriction to the effect that any citizen who ran for DP in the most recent DP election would be ineligible for appointment. This would prevent those who ran for DP but lost from being appointed.

    I will happily rewrite the proposal if you all let me know what you want included or not included regarding the ideas in this post.
     
  9. GeorgeOP

    GeorgeOP RF Bleachers

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    Because if we get to the point of having 15 Governorships open, we may run out of people to fill jobs. That was why I was worried about not finding an office holder. Also, some people want to participate but don't want a job.

    Donsig, the problem I have with your current ruling is that I must resign my current office to apply for a new office. But what happens when I'm not taken into the new office. Now I have no office and we have a different vacant office. Maybe change it to "b. Any citizen desiring to be eligible for appointment to a vacant office may announce a pending resignation to his or her current office that is only enacted if they recieve the new office."
     
  10. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    GeorgeOP, it's not my ruling. I'm only trying to rewrite a law so it conforms to the original intent. It is my understanding that we decided (as a group) that we wanted vacant offices filled by citizens who did not already have an office. Personally I think that's silly and the appointing officer should be allowed to appoint any citizen regardless of whether he or she already has an office. (I do agree though that if the appointee already has an office then the first office must be resigned - but that should happen after the appointment.) Incorporating your suggestion pretty much nullifies the requirement that only eligible appointees are those who do not currently hold office.

    By simply making it mandatory that the appointee not hold an office prior to the appointment we eliminate the need to ask for interested citizens to apply (though this could certainly still be done). We also eliminate the vexatious 72 hour clause. The appointing officer is free to appoint someone right away or take his time and ask for applications. He can do either depending on the need he sees.

    The situation you raise is not really so bad. If you have an office and a better one opens up then pm the Pres and express interest. Ask if he's willing to appoint you if you resign. If he's not then don't resign!

    Also, this proposal will most certainly not be adopted in time to deal with the current slew of vacancies. They will have to be filled under the current rules.
     
  11. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    You mean the current proposal? This isn't a ruling... ;)
     
  12. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    OK, let's fix this once and for all.

    Section 8 - Limits on Office Holders, Vacancies, and Appointments

    A. Limits to Running for Offices.
    I. No Citizen may run for more than one office during an election cycle.

    B. Limits to Holding Office
    I. No member of the Triumvirate or the Judiciary may hold a second office.
    II. Governors and Members of the Cabinet may hold up to two offices at the same time, at least one via appointment.
    III. No citizen may be appointed to a 2nd office unless no citizen without a position is interested in the empty office. The appointing official must announce a deadline for citizens to indicate their interest in the office, which shall not be less than 72 hours after the time the deadline is announced. This deadline is used solely for the purpose of demonstrating no citizen is interested in the office for the purpose this subsection. At any time that a citizen without an office expresses interest in the vacancy, the deadline of this section is considered fulfilled, a citizen without an office may be appointed immediately, and no person already holding an office may be appointed to this vacancy.
    IV. A resignation contingent on an appointment may be used as a mechanism to permit a current office holder to acquire a new position, without violating subsections B.I and B.II of this section.

    C. Vacancies

    An office is vacant if any of the following conditions is met:
    1. No candidates accept a nomination for the office during elections
    2. The current office holder resigns, is impeached (recalled), or is removed from office as the result of a judicial action.
    3. The current office holder is absent from the Democracy Game forum, without notice, for a period of 5 or more days, and does not post in the Democracy Game forum within 48 hours of being notified that his/her presence is required.

    D. Filling of Vacancies

    A vacant office must be filled via the first method in this list which applies to the situation.

    1. The deputy for an office, if one exists, assumes the duties of the office.
    2. The President, if resigning from office and not being removed as the result of a recall or judicial action, appoints his/her successor.
    3. The President appoints a citizen to the office, other than the office of President.
    4. The Secretary of State appoints a citizen to the office of President, in cases where the vacancy is not due to voluntary resignation.
    5. The Secretary of War appoints a citizen to the office of President if the office of Secretary of State is also vacant.
    6. If the entire triumvirate is vacant, all three Triumvirate offices are filled via a Special Election, with nominations lasting 2 days and election polls lasting 3 days. After the special election, if any new Triumvirate member is elected, any remaining Triumvirate offices are filled by the appointment process in this section.
    7. If a special election for triumvirate offices fails to select any new triumvirate members, the highest ranking cabinet officer remaining assumes the duties of President.

    E. All vacancy appointments are provisional until the time for a confirmation poll has passed, or when a confirmation poll for that appointment concludes with a 'Yes' majority.

    F. Any citizen may post a confirmation poll for an appointment to a Vacant office within 48 hours of the appointment. This must be a private poll, asking the question "Should the appointment of <citizen name> as <office> be confirmed", with the options Yes, No and Abstain. This poll must last for 3 days. If the poll closes with more no votes than yes votes, the appointment is reversed. This citizen may not be appointed to that office again that term. The appointee holds the office and is free to exercize the full powers of the office until such time as the appointment is reversed.

    G. Being a member of the Designated Player Pool is not considered holding an office and thus is not counted against a Citizen in terms of being able to run for and hold multiple offices.

    Change log:
    5/17 1900 MST - reordered and modified appointments list to remove a logical inconsistency.
    - added sections A and B back in, relabeled vacancies as section C, appointments as D
    - updated section B to include the concept of preference for non-office holders before multiple offices
    - added sections E, F, and G back in
     
  13. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    I would agree with DaveShack's latest proposal. Hopefully this would clear up any complex appointments :).
     
  14. ice2k4

    ice2k4 Emperor

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    Can't read all this now, but I'll update this post with my feelings towards this later.

    Also, donsig has even become and idioum for the CivIV demogame, be proud donsig, be proud.
     
  15. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity

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    Dave could you give a colour to the changes?
     
  16. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    It's a replacement for the entirety of section 8. There may be additonal subsections needed.
     
  17. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity

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    will you put in that people without jobs go first when appointing someone.
     
  18. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    I believe that it should be fair that everyone has an equal opportunity to obtain a job, regardless of experiance.
     
  19. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Change log:
    5/17 1900 MST - reordered and modified appointments list to remove a logical inconsistency.
    - added sections A and B back in, relabeled vacancies as section C, appointments as D
    - updated section B to include the concept of preference for non-office holders before multiple offices
    - added sections E, F, and G back in
     
  20. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    I would not vote for a law that lets a president resign and appoint his own replacement.
     

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