CoL Discussion: Section H(Appointed Positions)

[Donovan Zoi]

Here is Section H of the DG2 Code of Laws. This section deals with Appointed Positions. Please propose any modifications that will make for a better ruleset, as well as identify any passages that are no longer needed.

Keep in mind, with the reworking of our Constitution, this section may require an entire facelift.

H.   Appointed Positions 
   1.   Leaders in Executive, Judiciary and Provincial Government (office vacant mid-
   term or not filled during elections) 
       A.   Deputy is promoted to Leader. If there is no Deputy then: 
           1.   Appointed by President. 
           2.   Leader is confirmed by a Confirmation Council Vote. Simple 
           majority required. 
   2.   Departmental Deputies (office vacant mid-term or not filled during elections) 
       A.   Designated Chat Representative is promoted to Deputy. If there is no 
       Designated Chat Representative then: 
           1.   Department Leader appoints a deputy. 
           2.   Deputy is confirmed by a poll of the citizenry. Simple majority 
           required. 
           3.   Designated Chat Representative 
               A.   Appointed by Leader. 
               B.   Confirmed by a poll of the citizenry. Simple majority required. 
           4.   Deputy Governor 
               A.   Appointed by Provincial Governor 
               B.   Confirmed by a poll of the citizenry. Simple majority required. 
           5.   Pro-Tem Justice, Defendant and Advocate 
               A.   Appointed by Public Defendant and Judge Advocate, respectively. 
               B.   Confirmed by a poll of the citizenry. Simple majority required.

 

[Cyc]

I think we should take out all these silly confirmation polls as they are time consuming yet unnecessary.

2.A.5.A should also include the Chief Justice.

 

[Rik Meleet]

We should remove the confirmation polls and replace them with: "any citizen may request a poll to refuse the appointee. Simple majority is required. "

I don't want an automatic poll every time someone is appointed, but I want to give the citizens a tool to prevent someone from being appointed at will.

P.S. Pardon my English; please correct any language-errors in my proposal.

 

[ravensfire]

Like the idea Rik! How about 24 hours to object?

Couple of comments:

-- Fill all vacant positions after an election via another election, DG3 style.

-- Remove the chat rep position - we didn't use it in DG3, and don't need it here.

-- Remove all references to "Department" in section 2.

-- The Judiciary should use a different system for filling a vacant office. Should a position become absent, the remaining two Justices and the President form a committee to recommend a replacement. Barring a challenge (see Rik's proposal), the candidate is elevated to office. If more than one Judicial office is vacant, a Moderator will join the committee. (Clause 1 only - I can somewhat handle a pro-tem Justice in clause 2 for temporary replacement only!)

Reasons: Although seldom used, the Judiciary is one of the most demanding offices in the game - we need to make sure the candidates are up to the task.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Rik Meleet]

24 hours would in general suffice. I can imagine specific situations (christmas, power-outages, defect computers, (inter)national holidays etc.) which would create a need for more time, but the "objection-poller" can clarify his/her delay whe posting the poll. Of course are reasons as: "I had no time to post as I went to bed early / forgot / wasn't at home for the weekend" not valid reasons.

 

[ravensfire]

Couple of things that should be added to conform with earlier polls/decisions.

Under section 2:

-- No citizen that holds an elected position may be a deputy
-- No citizen may be a deputy for more than one elected position

Should be self-explanitory.

-- Ravensfire

 

[GenMarshall]

Originally posted by ravensfire
Couple of things that should be added to conform with earlier polls/decisions.

Under section 2:

-- No citizen that holds an elected position may be a deputy
-- No citizen may be a deputy for more than one elected position

Should be self-explanitory.

-- Ravensfire

I am 100% Strongly against this. For one thing, I beleve that any citizen that is in an elected possition should be alowed to be a deputy. I also beleve that all citizens should be alowed to hold more than 1 deputy possition (Max up to 3)

 

[Cyc]

CG, I believe your days of holding multiple deputy positions are over. A person can only stretch themselves so far.

 

[ravensfire]

Something else we need to cover - and haven't in the past - when is an office considered vacant? What happens if an office is declared vacant, the deputy takes over, and the former holder returns? What if said former holder has a really good excuse - and a note from their mother?

-- Ravensfire

 

[Octavian X]

For the purposes of this article, I think that offices are only vacant when none are named. We nee another section to deal with absenteeism.

 

[DaveShack]

Somewhere, we need to cover:

• Planned, permanent vacancies (retirement, resignation, ouster)
• Unplanned, permanent (typically just never hear from him/her again)
• Planned, temporary (vacation, etc.)
• Unplanned, temporary (lost connectivity, illness, etc.)

Suggestions

• deputy promoted, appoint to fill in deputy -- who should appoint new deputy, outgoing leader, new leader, other
• Need a definition of how long to wait. Deputy needs power to run office after some short amount of time, and then is appointed to take over after some longer time.
• Deputy takes over, but no need for an appointment because the office isn't really vacant.
• Need to define a timeframe for deputy to take over. Only real difference between this and unplanned, permanent is that the leader eventually comes back.

We also need to define somewhere the circumstances under which a leader can explicitly delegate a defined set of responsibilities without taking an absense.

 

[Bootstoots]

I think that for planned permanent vacancies, the deputy should take over in the ordinary manner. For unplanned vacancies of any sort, the deputy could simply take over for the whole term de-facto, but never officially ascend to that position during that term, just in case the leader had an internet failure of some sort or something to that effect. I think a waiting period of 48-72 hours makes the most sense. For planned temporary vacancies, the deputy could assume control of the office during the time that leader is supposed to be gone, with the vacancy becoming unplanned if it extends longer than expected without notice by that leader.

 

[ravensfire]

If I recall, a suggestion was made that should a leader fail to post instructions at least 24 hours prior to the start of a turn chat, the deputy for that position is empowered to post instructions. I'd like to toss that idea out. It's a great way to cover unexpected absences for the immediate needs of the turn chat.

The next step would be to declare the office abandoned. I propose that, should a leader fail to post instructions for 2 turns, any citizen may propose that the office is abandoned. This should be done as a post in the Citizen thread. The Chief Justice shall then send a message to that leader, and post in the abadon thread that a message has been sent. Should that leader fail to respond within 48 hours of the PM, the leader is removed from office and the office is considered vacant.

So, here's the proposal:

Nothing to see here, keep moving!

-- Ravensfire

 

[ravensfire]

Since I'm on a roll, here's an omnibus proposal for this issue.

H.  Vacant Positions
  1.  Offices that remain unfilled after an election shall be filled through elections.

  2.  Offices that become vacant in mid-term shall be filled by appointing the deputy for 
      that position to the office.
    a.  A vacancy in the Judiciary shall be filled by the remaining members of the Judiciary 
        and the President determining the replacement.
      1.  Any citizen may request a refusal poll within 24 hours of the appointement.  
          Should a majority of citizens voting in the poll reject the candidate, another 
          must be chosen.

  3.  Should a leader fail to post instructions for 2 consecutive game play sessions, any 
      citizen may request that the office be declared abandoned by creatin a thread in the 
      Citizen forum. 
    a.  The Chief Justice shall then send a PM to the office holder, notifying them of the 
        request.
    b.  The Chief Justice shall then post in the request thread that the PM has been sent.
    c.  Should the office holder fail to reply within 48 hours of the PM, the office holder 
        is removed and the office is considered vacant.

I.  Deputies
  1.  Each elected office in the Executive and Legislative branch shall have a Deputy.  This 
      Deputy is appointed by the office holder.
    a.  Any citizen may post a refusal poll within 24 hours of the appointment.  Should a 
        majority of citizens voting in the poll reject the candidate, another citizen must be chosen.

  2.  The Deputy for a position may post instructions for that position should no 
      instructions be posted within 24 hours of the scheduled start of the game play session.

  3.  Should an office holder post that they will be absent for a certain time period, the 
      Deputy is empowered with all duties and responsibilities of the position for that period.
    a.  The Deputy shall relinquish all such powers upon return of the office holder.
    b.  Should the Deputy fail to post instructions while such empowered, the Designated 
        Player shall perform the actions of that office as they deem to be within the Will 
        of the People, using such information as is available to them.
    c.  A member of the Judiciary, subject to approval by the other members of the Judiciary, 
        may appoint any citizen to serve in their office.

  4.  No citizen already holding an elected office may be a deputy for any other office.

  5.  No citizen may be the deputy for more than one elected office.

Whew - have fun!

-- Ravensfire

EDIT: reformatted for clarity

 

[Cyc]

Taking care of all this planned,unplanned stuff in the CoL is all fine and good. I think we should make up a Section for Absenteeism.

But this Section deals with Appointed poositions. Appointments can be made because of absenteeism, but stating the specifics for that in this Section is not neccessary.

Proposal:

H. Appointed Positions
1. Leaders in Executive, Judiciary and Provincial Government
a.(office vacant mid-term) The President shall appoint the Deputy as Leader of the Department. If no Deputy exists, the President shall appoint a suitable replacement.
b.(not filled during elections) If the position is not filled by election, then there isn't a Deputy, or if there is, that Deputy can not serve as Leader by choice. Therefore the President shall appoint a suitable individual to fill the Leader postion.

2. Deputy Positions
a. Departmental Deputies shall be the runner-up of election for that Department, if there is no runner-up then the Departmental Leader shall appoint a suitable replacement. A Leader may also dismiss a Deputy if he feels that Deputy is not fulfilling his responsibilities. Said Leader may then appoint the Chat Representative to the Deputy postion, unless there is no Chat Representative, then the Leader will appoint a suitable replacement.

3. Chat Representatives
a. Departmental Leaders may appoint suitable individuals to fill the Chat Representative positions.

I suggest someone start that Section concerning absenteeism, as I don't believe it goes in the CoS and should be dealt with in the CoL.

 

[ravensfire]

Cyc,

It's true that the title of the DG2 section is appointed positions. In reality, it dealt more with deputies than anything else. I renamed it to be more consistent.

I also did add a section for absenteeism stuff.

Chat reps - do we really need that position any more? I don't see any use for them. DG3 did quite nicely without any.

I like the stuff about a leader may dismiss a deputy - didn't even cross my mind. Good one! Also like the Pres. appointing leader if no deputy exists - missed that as well.

H.1.b doesn't make sense as written, or I'm just too tired. Could you explain? As it is, I would prefer that any position not filled in an election cycle be filled with an abbreviated election.

-- Ravensfire

 

[Cyc]

Originally posted by ravensfire
Cyc,

It's true that the title of the DG2 section is appointed positions. In reality, it dealt more with deputies than anything else. I renamed it to be more consistent.

Section H is about appointed positions, it's just that the Section was so poorly written that it is confusing. H.1 is about Leaders, plain and simple. H.2 goes into Deputies.

Chat reps - do we really need that position any more? I don't see any use for them. DG3 did quite nicely without any.

Yes, I believe we should keep something about Chat Reps in the CoL in case some Department wants or needs to use them. But this point is a throw away for me, as I never used a Chat Rep in any of my Leadership positions.

H.1.b doesn't make sense as written, or I'm just too tired. Could you explain? As it is, I would prefer that any position not filled in an election cycle be filled with an abbreviated election.

-- Ravensfire

1. What the heck are you talking about here, Ravensfire. We had a long, drawn out discussion about appointments and then polled the citizens on it, who said they wanted appointments. Period! We will not rehash all of this again. Empty Offices will be filled by appointment.

2. Because the original Section H was so poorly written, it said that if an Office was not filled by election, then the Deputy would be promoted to Leader. If there is no Leader, how did we get a Deputy? The reason there is no Leader is because no one ran for the position. Thus my H.1.b

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by Cyc


Section H is about appointed positions, it's just that the Section was so poorly written that it is confusing. H.1 is about Leaders, plain and simple. H.2 goes into Deputies.

If the section is so poorly written that it's confusing, why not rewrite it? I don't see a problem with my proposal on that. It covers the same issues, but does so in a manner that is simpler and easier to understand.

1. What the heck are you talking about here, Ravensfire. We had a long, drawn out discussion about appointments and then polled the citizens on it, who said they wanted appointments. Period! We will not rehash all of this again. Empty Offices will be filled by appointment.

Cyc, I looked back at the poll on this issue. The question was "Should we allow appointments in DG4"

Link to poll

The discussion on this poll revolves around Deputies. I argue that the poll indicates ONLY that citizens want deputies to be appointed. Nothing there could indicate that citizens want an office not filled in an election to be filled via appointments. Sorry, you're trying to make a poll say something it doesn't. The poll says that we want deputies to be appointed. Period. Offices not filled in an election should be filled with an abbreviated election.

2. Because the original Section H was so poorly written, it said that if an Office was not filled by election, then the Deputy would be promoted to Leader. If there is no Leader, how did we get a Deputy? The reason there is no Leader is because no one ran for the position. Thus my H.1.b

This would be the sentance I'm struggling with. "...then there isn't a Deputy, or if there is ..." You just said that they can't be a deputy, but then said their might be. It's just not written well.

If the position isn't filled in an election, it's empty. There is no Deputy. There can't be. I understand what you are trying to say, this just is a bad way to say it. Be blunt on this issue.

-- Ravensfire

EDIT: Reformatted and included quotes

 

[Cyc]

quoting Ravensfire:
Cyc, I looked back at the poll on this issue. The question was "Should we allow appointments in DG4"

Link to poll

The discussion on this poll revolves around Deputies. I argue that the poll indicates ONLY that citizens want deputies to be appointed. Nothing there could indicate that citizens want an office not filled in an election to be filled via appointments. Sorry, you're trying to make a poll say something it doesn't. The poll says that we want deputies to be appointed. Period. Offices not filled in an election should be filled with an abbreviated election.


Ravensfire, pass that pipe onto someone else. ok? you've had enough! Talk about making the poll say what you want....
The poll's title is "Should we allow appointments in DG4?". The poll's question is "Should we allow appointments in DG4?". The first post of the poll simply states "Should we allow appoinments in DG4?

Yes
No
Abstain"

Nowhere does it say Deputies. It says appointments. You are the one bending the poll to your needs, not me. I have been very lenient on my wording concerning this issue, but you appear to be high-jacking it to suit your campaign promise. It ain't goona work, senor Presidential Candidate.

 

[ravensfire]

Originally posted by Cyc
quoting Ravensfire:
Cyc, I looked back at the poll on this issue. The question was "Should we allow appointments in DG4"

Link to poll

The discussion on this poll revolves around Deputies. I argue that the poll indicates ONLY that citizens want deputies to be appointed. Nothing there could indicate that citizens want an office not filled in an election to be filled via appointments. Sorry, you're trying to make a poll say something it doesn't. The poll says that we want deputies to be appointed. Period. Offices not filled in an election should be filled with an abbreviated election.


Ravensfire, pass that pipe onto someone else. ok? you've had enough! Talk about making the poll say what you want....
The poll's title is "Should we allow appointments in DG4?". The poll's question is "Should we allow appointments in DG4?". The first post of the poll simply states "Should we allow appoinments in DG4?

Yes
No
Abstain"

Nowhere does it say Deputies. It says appointments. You are the one bending the poll to your needs, not me. I have been very lenient on my wording concerning this issue, but you appear to be high-jacking it to suit your campaign promise. It ain't goona work, senor Presidential Candidate.

Let me just take that pipe back from you then.

Read the discussion Cyc. Read the context of the poll - it revolves around deputies. Period. Go ahead - read through it. Read through the discussion that spawned it. Deputies. Period. Driver through, please. Next!

And I assure you that I will never be a Presidential candidate in this game. It is impossible for me to meet the requirements.

-- Ravensfire