Col is overrated

[Silence101]

I can't believe there's a thread that questions the value of CoL - this is hands down one of the most valuable techs in the early game! Madscientist basically has spoken for me here and I don't want to re-say what's already been written, but I'm surprised there's even a debate about this.

BTW - Currency is good too... I'm not downing currency, but CoL is much more important in my book. (Unless every city you build is a commerce city... but that's not really city specialization, now is it.)

 

[oyzar]

Well it is not only currency but i can often find myself getting construction/litterature/monarchy as more important techs at least some of the time. Increased happiness from HR often give more return than the reduced maintanace cost from courthouses and that is without having to whip anything. Having size 15 cities in the BC's is nice. Also this was mostly for lower levels where maintenance Is pretty cheap.

 

[KMadCandy]

it's true that currency is lovely, and gives you +1 trade routes

+ the ability to trade for money :
- sell resources for gpt
- sell techs for gold
- ask politely for gold
- extort gold
- sue for peace, gaining some gold in the trade

but how much gold you can get from the AI when selling things / extortion [i would never!] / etc varies quite a bit by difficulty. i know you never play the low levels any more. i switch around levels a lot. there's a gauntlet this month at settler, and it's fun!

the lower the level, the slower the AI expands (so they have fewer trade routes), maybe it even takes their cities more food to grow(?), the longer it takes them to learn the techs that improve their economy, stuff like that. so on higher levels they have a much bigger treasury that you can benefit from when you get currency. prince and below, not so much.

currency's still lovely and helps you out of course. but difficulty is a factor to consider in how early to get it.

ps ok, sometimes i do extort. but only when they deserve it.

 

[futurehermit]

true difficulty is a factor in terms of selling for $. i've always sensed that about deity. on the one hand many things are harder on higher levels, but on the other some things are "easier". one thing is the ai often has a lot more money that you can acquire to keep your econ afloat as you expand (compare prince-monarch where maintenance costs still add up but the ai does not have this money to "help" you). another is you can lightbulb a tech and trade it around for a lot of good stuff at a time when you need it the most (e.g., currency, col, calendar, etc.) whereas again compare prince/monarch where you have to self-research all these important techs or else do without for awhile which is often difficult.

the thing is though currency in most cases will be a great choice and on the lower levels you don't have to worry too much about maintenance costs anyways!!

 

[KMadCandy]

true difficulty is a factor in terms of selling for $. i've always sensed that about deity. on the one hand many things are harder on higher levels, but on the other some things are "easier". one thing is the ai often has a lot more money that you can acquire to keep your econ afloat as you expand (compare prince-monarch where maintenance costs still add up but the ai does not have this money to "help" you)...

the thing is though currency in most cases will be a great choice and on the lower levels you don't have to worry too much about maintenance costs anyways!!

oh it's so weird how many things are harder/easier depending on the level. deity OCC (so you're not paying any maintenance, which helps) you can end up collecting enough cash from them to rush-buy a huge chunk of the UN if you're going for diplo. prince, not gonna happen. on prince tho, mansa's less likely to beat you to building the UN, which can kinda ruin the entire plan .

currency's always a good thing! i just don't find it as helpful to speed to it pronto when i'm playing noble- as when i'm playing emp+. not many folks jump around on difficulty levels as much as i do *giggle* and may have forgotten what it was like when they were starting out. i just wanted to point it out so folks on prince don't assume they'll be instantly rich when they have access to the AI's pocketbooks. sometimes the AI will have money there, often they'll just have spare change. but even their spare change comes in a handy if it you find a way to make it yours .

 

[futurehermit]

yes, that is very good advice imo

 

[cabert]

good point Kmad, I guess it shows I don't play prince and below as often as I should
Then again, I get my ass kicked at emperor

 

[pigswill]

I guess another reason why CoL is more popular than currency is that its much easier to get from Oracle.

 

[shyuhe]

I guess another reason why CoL is more popular than currency is that its much easier to get from Oracle.

CoL can be accessed with mysticism + writing whereas currency requires math (I think). Most people trade for math from the AI so don't have it when they pop the oracle. Still, I think currency is a better tech than CoL at higher levels because it recovers your economy faster with the extra trade routes (and doesn't take a lot of hammers like courthouses either).

Currency is slightly more expensive than CoL though...

 

[Snaaty]

CoL leads to Civil Service (CS). I usually never bother researching currency untill I´m able to trade it or have finished CS. Early bureau... rules

So what makes CoL that important is the combo of:

- might get a religion
- can build courthouses
- path to CS

 

[futurehermit]

^^^what he said

 

[jason77024]

^^^what he said

FH, how often do you take MC instead of CoL? Or are you not an Oracle guy (I forget)?

 

[ungy]

At higher levels COL has the following advantages(been playing imm but I'd guess would apply to deity and emp as well).

1. The AI tends not to prioritize it as much (esp in BTS) unless it can found religion. That makes it good for trading and conversely hard to trade for.

2. You need it or drama for the phil lighbulb, which you will want to do in the majority of high level games.

3. The AI will prioritize math and currency. Once Hanging Gardens is built, math can be traded for easily (and in Warlords earlier), and same with currency.

4. If you are organized, you get the courthouses for cheap so they become much better value.

5. If you have overexpanded and crashed the economy from an early war then most likely COL is critical--also enables caste which can be used in emergencies to run merchants.

So if your economy is decent and you have trading opportunities, better to go COL and then maybe MC and pick up most of the rest in trade (HR, math, currency, alpha (BTS), calender). Or if the capital rocks and math is available in trade proceed directly to CS.

 

[lilnev]

I've been experimenting with going straight to MC when I have several potential trading partners. In BtS, the AIs go to Alphabet quickly enough and reliably enough that I can generally trade MC for it, and still get several other techs for MC -- some mix of Currency, Calendar, Monarchy, less often CoL
(as ungy says, the AIs seem to pursue this later in BtS) or Construction (they often refuse to trade this one). MC by itself doesn't do much, it's just so good for trading. You have to be pretty sure of your timing though -- if you slow your economy too much and the AIs beat you to MC, you're going to be stuck. It also might not work so well on lower levels (I mostly play Immortal) if the AIs don't get to Alphabet in time to trade it to you.

peace,
lilnev

 

[Dan Quale]

Going the totally non religous line, and simply plundering religious shrines from enemies, I always go the bw,wheel,pottery,writing,alphabet,currency,col, line.
With this method after alphabet your economy skyrockets back up, after either a REX or a rush.

 

[gdgrimm]

OK. So there seems to be a few discussions occurring on this thread. I'll add my comments to each....

Courthouses or Markets -- At Monarch level, and generally striving for a CE with 70-80% research setting, I find the Courthouses a must have in nearly all cities, while Markets get built for Shrine gold multiplier (or wherever my Gold city is) or happiness multiplier.

But on the lower difficulties that the OP mentioned, I can understand why Markets might be better. The city upkeep costs are quite a bit lower, making the 50% cut in city upkeep less impressive. The 25% boost from the Market (even at a 70-80% research setting) could be as good or better.

CoL or Currency -- This one usually depends on which research path I'm taking. Sometimes, I drive the religion path, try to found 1 or 2 religions, build the Oracle, pick a State Religion for production and diplomacy benefits, etc., etc., etc. That makes CoL the first on the list, and I'll trade for the other stuff (like Currency).

Sometimes I completely neglect the religion path, avoid any religions, play nice to most of the civs, work the Math/Currency/Calendar/Construction chain and trade for all the religion techs. That, of course, means Currency before CoL.

Also, map size makes a difference. Many civs, large map, many cities, makes that +1 TR from Currency really profitable. Plus the ability to sell excess resources to a range of needy civs. Since city upkeep costs seem to be adjusted for map size, the Courthouse benefit doesn't really seem to go up. So one might say that large maps makes Currency more powerful than it is on smaller maps.

 

[cabert]

I know why I'm not in the same boat as those saying courthouses are better than markets.
It's because I rarely run 80% science if I can't beg my neighbours' money!
I'm usually running at 20% science without currency, after currency, I beg around the world and sell techs and run 100% science for most of the game.

Building markets isn't really why I think currency is great...