Collateral Dmg Question

[peter450]

I have a question thats been bugging me of late, tanks can be upgraded to cause collateral dmg, would a tank with the 3 barrage promo's do the same collateral dmg as artillery with those same 3 promos? or less?

 

[ShannonCT]

Start a game. Go into Worldbuilder and give yourself a tank and an artillery with barrage III. Put some barb infantry on a hill. Fire away.

 

[JKWSN]

It depends on the starting strength of the collateral damage. Overall strength of the attacking unit has nothing to do with it. Artillery has an inherent bonus, as it starts with some collateral damage potential.

A Modern Armor with barrage3 can splash mech inf to 28.5
A Mobile Artillery with barrage3 can splash mech inf to 28.2
A catapult with barrage3 can splash mech inf to 30.4
A fully upgraded catapult? 30.4 and survives the attack

 

[Bushface]

I've just tried a simple test in WB: ten pairs of Mech Inf (with Combat 1, due to a poor choice of leader), each pair attacked by (1) a single Cat, Treb, Cannon, Art'y, Mob.Art'y, all unpromoted, and (2) same siege weapons but each with Barrage 3 which cancels the Combat 1. In that order, the strengths left for the collaterally-damaged Mech Inf were 30.7, 30.7, 30.1, 29.8, 29.1; 29.1, 29.1, 28.2, 28.8, and 28.5.
Every one of the ten attacking siege weapons died in the assault.
Only the Mobile Art'y. scored hits on the units targeted (1 hit and 2, respectively, for 16HP damage each)
I also tried attacks with a Tank and a Mod.Arm., both with Barrage 3. The tank reduced its collateral adversary to 29.4 strength, the Mod.Arm. to 28.5, and both died in the assault, the latter to a series of 6 hits at 17 HP each against 80.2% odds: the theoretical chance of that happening is 6 in 100,000.

 

[Elandal]

You need to do further testing, to find out
1) how many units will each of these affect (will arty do collateral to many more mechs than a cat will)?
2) how much total damage can be done by a unit. That means taking a stack of mechs so that full collateral damage gets done (enough units that a fully barraged arty can't damage more than there're in the stack in a single attack), then having many of the unit attack the stack, to see how low health will the units go until no more collateral can be done.

I assume that arty will damage more units than cat, and also that arty will take the units to lower health with collateral damage than a cat will.

IIRC from warlords:
- Tank (base strength 28) with Barrage 3 (+100% collateral damage total) would do collateral damage with strength of (28 * (0 + 100%)) = 28, whereas
- Arty (base strength 18) with Barrage 3 (+100% collateral damage total) would do collateral damage with strength of (18 * (1 + 100%)) = 36

 

[Bushface]

I have taken Elandal's advice.
I set up two stacks, each of 20 Mech.Inf., and attacked one with lots of Catapults with Barrage 3 and the other with Mobile Art'y also with Barrage 3 - all attacks with one unit at a time, of course.
The Cats began by causing collateral damage (hereinafter called CD) to 6 units per shot. Of the first 9 attacks, only #6 damaged its direct target, by 9HP; by then, only one M.I. remained undamaged, the others having suffered CD down to 29.1 to 24.0 of 32. Cat #13, vs the strongest remaining M.I at 27.2, managed a hit at 9HP and was the last to cause CD to 6 units: #14 CD'd 5, ##15-17 did 4, #18 did no CD - by which time the M.I. strengths ranged from 25.6 down to 22.7. There were several M.I.s at that strength and no way to know how many cats would be needed to score a hit or two on them, so I gave up. Not one catapult withdrew from combat: they all died.
The Mobile Art'y did better, unsurprisingly, doing CD to 8 units a time and with initial retreat odds of 43.1% compared with the cat's <0.1%. None the less, four of the first six died. It took only 5 shots for all the 20 M.Is to take some damage, putting the retreat odds up to 64.5% and 93.9% by shot 8. Shot 10 did CD to just 5 units, the strongest remaining being at 12.8 of 32: shot 11 did CD to only 1, and shot 12 none. In attack 13 the Mob.Art. withdrew without a shot by either side, presumably because any hit would take the target below the 15% threshhold of 4.8/32, a figure to which four of the direct targets were reduced.

 

[Elandal]

You might want to summarize some findings there, Bushface

1) Catapults with Barrage3 do CD to max 6 units
2) Mobile Artillery with Barrage3 do CD to max 8 units

Small difference, but it DOES show that more modern units do better collateral damage.

3) Cats with Barrage3 take Mech Infs to strength 22.7 with CD
4) M.I. with B3 take M.I. to strength 4.8 with CD

Here we see a HUGE difference: Cats can barely scratch modern unit, while modern arty takes them down to low enough health for classical era axes to batter down if needed.

Did I read your findings correctly?


EDIT:
would be nice to hear about Barrage3 Tanks and unpromoted M.A. too to compare how A) a unit that normally does not do collateral compares to units that normally DO collateral and B) how much did that B3 help the M.A's in collateral department.

 

[CivDude86]

Collateral damage is a % of the units . All the siege weapons are 100% and cho-ko-nus are 50%. Tanks are 0 and need barage to do any. So a barage1 tank is 20% of 28 which is 5.6, slightly stronger than a catapult.