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Colonialist Legacies' Canadian Dominion for VP

Discussion in 'Mods Repository' started by pineappledan, Nov 15, 2018.

  1. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  2. Denn

    Denn Chieftain

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    whats going on with "avro arrow" ? it still shows up on tech. Canada has 5 UC/UA?
     
  3. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  4. ridjack

    ridjack King

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    Is there a particular reason the UAs "garrison" yields come up the way they do? They don't show up in the standard yields trackers, so none of the interface is reliable; they act like an instant yield but they're not even tracked by the Instant Yield interface widget.

    And they have a pop up literally every turn, which is a mild annoyance. Not far into my game with them yet, so can't comment on the rest of the kit as of now.
     
  5. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    instant yields are the only way I could implement the UA without incredible culture bloat on the capital. It's also less computationally intense than adding removing large numbers of dummy buildings. My experience with the instant yields was that adding 3 types of in-game pop-up yields on every garrisoned unit was very intrusive. I preferred to condense it into a single balance sheet report at the end of each turn. I wish I could figure out how to make it so the icon used was the canadian civ icon though. I think the bigger problem is that a blue "!" on your side bar isn't very pretty
     
  6. ridjack

    ridjack King

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    Is there anything preventing them from being tracked by VP's "Instant Yields" widget, though? Agreed about the the "!". Some other icon would definitely be preferable.

    Also, the AI seems to be perceiving the trade-route-territory as land purchasing; a turn after my caravan cruised by Assyria's borders, he came to me whining about land purchases.
     
  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    no
    You grabbed territory then he get mad. Working as intended
     
  8. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    I tried out Canada with 4UC and must admit that I don't like their kit. It's a bit all over the place and isn't great at a specific thing either. Below is my feedback on the civ.

    Spoiler :
    The UA is probably one of the weaker ones. The internal land TR idea is unique but it has a couple of issues. You need Trade to get Caravan and build a Granary in your capital. Unless you have a luxury that requires Trapping, Trade isn't a big priority or even along the way so you might never even use it. It's also very situational regarding when you can fully utilize this as you don't always have control of where the Caravan goes and cities are usually settled without that many tiles between them and the capital. If you do settle aggressively, your Caravan might not even be ready before the AI settles a city between your new city and the capital.

    Next, the extra delegate from DoF is also weird in that you get the most DoF early in the game when WC isn't unlocked and, when it does matter, you'd get 2 or 3 on a standard map and the impact feels very minimal. I also don't see this really contributing to the diplomatic victory condition so it's meh for me.

    Units garrisoned in cites, forts and citadels is the most interesting thing about the UA and it's at its peak strength midgame. Why not early game? Fort isn't available until late Classical Era while Citadel is certainly limited and unreliable that early. Cities are your only place for garrisons and, to maximize the benefit, you will likely have to spend gold to purchase units for those cities. While it seems like a decent investment for units, that's also gold not spent on buildings if you went progress which seems like the best way to maximize this aspect of the UA since you have more cities and more land for forts/citadels. Late game, the yields you get might not be as impressive compared to the midgame.

    For the gold and GG points, it seems better suited for Authority but Canada has literally nothing that gives it an edge over other Authority civ until very late game. Therefore, the one policy tree it's suited for is one that Canada isn't even that good at.

    Regarding the Hudson's Bay Company, it's a pretty solid UNW. My complaint is that it's still at Guilds which is at an awkward location when you also want to unlock your Explorer replacement. I would have preferred this UB to be unlocked in Compass as well but that's a different topic. This gives a healthy amount of yields to all Custom Houses and Banks along with units garrisoned in forts/citadels.

    Now, I want to talk about forts/citadels. One is unlocked through Engineering and the other requires a GG. I can understand the attempt at this aggressive defensive posture but the garrison aspects makes the situation a bit awkward. First, you want to fill up your supply cap to get as much bonus as possible. Those units cost maintenance so I'm not sure how much net gold you get. Next, we need roads to connect all of those Forts as mobility is key if one of our neighbors show aggression and you need to answer to those aggression. Except for certain maps, you won't get a lot of chokepoints and a relatively wide front might you spread a bit thin. Those roads costs maintenance as well. Then, an actual war likely will see a lot of forts unused so war, a time when you defensive preparation should benefit you the most, is also the time when your yields drop. I understand if I'm playing the aggressor and should get punished. However, I can be the defender and still get punished for my troops needed elsewhere and not garrisoning all the forts like I would prefer.

    The Explorer replacement is basically a cheaper and weaker envoy that requires a lot of micromanagement to get many CS allies. I personally think there's enough micro in the game, especially with wars caused by stealing CS and stealing territory, so this seems a bit much. The concept is nice but it becomes a chore after awhile. I do hope there would be a better implementation of this.

    For the 4UC, both the UU and UB comes way too late to have an impact. The UU is alright but, if I went Authority, I think I'll still pick the Foreign Legion over the Expeditionary Force. Foreign Legion might not be as strong when it comes to attacking but it's so easy to get and replace, especially since the UA provides quite a bit of gold. In addition, Foreign Legions are better defensively in hostile territory so they can take hits better. In a lot of games, the wars at this stage are either formality or the bulk of my damage comes from ranged units instead of the melee units. Therefore, Expeditionary Force seems underwhelming and its role seems minimal at this stage of the game.

    Given how late the Hockey Rink is, the yields don't seem very impactful at this point. With the recent change to growth, the pop of cities are lower so the gold and culture you get from the scaler isn't that much. The GAP is fairly low because, assuming you did go wide, a bunch of Hockey Rinks built might not rival a Great Artist at this point of the game. If you are going for CV, your Tourism output each turn is likely more than what the UBC provides so, while it speeds thing up a bit, it's merely icing on the cake when you consider that you should be on your way to the CV by the time Radio becomes available. The culture is negligible at this point with the costs of the tenet being pretty high and the influence is pretty useless if you take into how many SOI you'd have by this point in the game. For me, the Hockey Rink comes too late and its bonuses are just too small to make it incredible (probably due to how late it comes).

    Summary:
    Canada seems most suited for Authority with its UA but it has no militaristic UU until Modern Era. Even the UA is pretty average so Canada is one of the weaker Authority civs, especially with its early game being so weak. Hudson's Bay Company is amazing while the Hockey Rink generally has a limited or no impact on your end whether you are going for a victory condition or struggling to catch up to the runaway civ. The Explorer replacement requires a ton of micro to make work and that's just, for me at least, anti-fun. The Expeditionary Force is certainly not my choice if I went Authority so I wonder if it's even worthwhile to get. Overall, Canada isn't well suited for any victories specifically and only leans towards domination if you are do well in the early game when you are weakest.
     
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  9. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    All your points are valid, but this is unfortunately the case when trying to force a civ; sometimes it's not that great in practice. I personally requested a playable Canada, and Dan was awesome enough to port this over for VP with priority, acknowledging that the civ would probably be a little rough around the edges. Maybe it gets tweaked again in the future, but regardless, it's still fun to have the option to play and I can't thank Dan enough.
     
  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    fair points, all of them. I will mount my rebuttal below:
    Spoiler :
    I've played a few games with Canada at this point, and yes, Canada's kit has some low-impact stuff in it. The UA in particular is very weak. I will note, however, that Canada has a secret 4th component to their UA, which is +50% range to their land TRs, just to make connecting distant cities more manageable.

    The idea behind the forts/citadels bonus is that you would NOT be connecting the forts via roads. If you do that, they do not provide enough :c5gold: to offset their own road and unit maintenance. The 4:c5gold: you get with HBC is more than enough to cover unit maintenance until you have >50 units, but the value of having a strong standing army, even if not at war, is more than enough of a carrot to keep the forts/citadels staffed.

    Progress vs authority is a tough call, because Canada has enough :c5gold: with its garrison bonus that you can field a larger army than most other civs for early war. They also are one of the first civs to get a GGeneral out. You can leverage Canada's small economic edge to take out a weaker neighbour. There are also some obvious synergies with Authority, like the :c5culture: on garrisons and the reduction to unit maintenance. I've personally preferred Progress in my playthroughs for the sole reason that Canada has no :c5science: bonuses, and Authority is of almost no help in that regard.

    Even though it comes 1 tech earlier, I have never actually made it all the way up to Hockey Rinks in a full playthrough. Too many mods, stability issues, boredom, etc. As you say, the idea behind the Stadium's :tourism: bonus was to give approx 1.5 turns worth of tourism for every city on empire. The bigger bonus, however, is towards diplo victory. +20:c5influence: with all 12 CS in a standard game is a free 240:c5influence: influence. That's pretty decent. the CERN gives +100:c5influence:, and the two together could clinch a DV for Canada without even sending delegates to a far-off CS. I have considered bumping this to +25:c5influence:, just to make the round influence on a standard game equal to both the Voyageurs' boost, as well as make the total :c5influence: equal to a nice round 300.

    As for the Coureurs des bois, Canada is a DV civ and they functionally get an envoy that is faster, can defend itself, has no paper requirement, 1 turn purchase CD instead of 5, and refunds 1/3 of its :c5gold:cost on expending. Even if the :c5influence: is lower, it's absolutely a superior unit. They also benefit from the Statecraft policy. Coureurs des bois are higher on the unit list alphabetically, you aren't tracking purchase CDs, strategics, and they take fewer turns to get to their destination. Their only disadvantage is that they cannot enter enemy borders. If you've played with Canada up to Medieval/Renaissance and actually tried the unit, I think you will agree that Canada has LESS micro overall than a standard DV civ, even with the smaller total :c5influence: influence on expending.

    As for the 4UC expeditionary force, my hands are tied. Canada needs SOME sort of military perk, since their other UU was functionally co-opted into a diplo unit, and Canada's first actual war as a nation was the Boer War. We're all a little embarrassed about that war, so then the next two options are either WWI or WWII. Canada's main contribution to the earlier of those wars was infantry. If you were willing to wait even longer for a WWII unit, then a unique destroyer is probably the best option. Other than that, there's not really any other historically relevant options. That's simply the realities of a civ that was created in 1867.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2019
  11. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    I just realized the caravan land grab doesn't create city connection, maybe it should do so as a small buff?

    I agree in bumping the influence up to +25 for rinks. Expeditionary Force are solid, just awkward their bonus is on attack, when I play Canada with a defensive mindset and not to necessarily advance and take ground at that stage of the game (if not going Imperialism).

    I've personally only gone Progress because Authority doesn't fit Canada's theme, despite the noted synergy with Imperialism. I know it's a diplo civ, but having no science flavour hurts. Maybe the UA can get a tweak: each DoF provides Canada with 5% science (could cap this at 25%, but probably unnecessary) and both civs receive +1 delegate. Think of it like a mini research agreement where only Canada receives the science, with tech increasing due to all the trade. Most times you're not going to have more than 2 or 3 friends at any given time (you often won't be receiving the bonus at all, specifically early game) so a 10-15% empire science boost is nice, but shouldn't be unbalanced or OP.
     
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    From a roleplaying perspective, I've always felt that Canada's obvious synergies with Authority and Imperialism are very fitting. Canada has a long history of subjugation, colonization, and genocide, just not to the degree of the USA. Authority and Imperialism tenets are at least as relevant to our colonial history as any of our peacekeeping/diplomatic overtures are to the more aspirational view of our national identity.

    Ultimately, it's a tension between what Canada wants to be/wants to be viewed as, and the skeletons in our national closet.
     
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  13. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    By the way, automated workers will still build roads to all those forts/citadels...
     
  14. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    In response to your rebuttal:

    Spoiler :
    Regarding distant cities, it's such a big gamble that I wonder if it's worth the risk. You are basically overextending if you want to take full advantage of the connecting cities with ITR while there's also possibly barbarians that can spawn and pillage your TR as you aren't likely to have enough units to clear the fog for the entire journey. Let's not forget about angering one other civ on the continent and being unable to defend that distant city. While it's true that you can get a GG faster than other civs, it's also not going to make much of a difference if you can't defend that distant city.

    If all the forts aren't connected by roads, then the civ isn't playing to its strength in defending its border. When defending, mobility should be the advantage and, without roads, it really hurts Canada's ability to defend effectively. I also notice the AI builds roads to forts and citadels so, while we humans know better than getting roads everywhere, the AI doesn't know that so does this hurt the AI? Interestingly enough, these issues are addressed by Authority with the lower unit maintenance cost and cheaper roads.

    Comparing Progress vs Authority, I do find Canada is better suited for Authority. Progress will shine more mid-game when the HBC is built but, until then, Canada is no different from any other civs. It also doesn't help that peaceful wide seems more nerfed in recent patches so I feel like Authority becomes more and more enticing. Regarding the :c5science: Science bonus you get from Progress, it dissuades the player from expanding aggressive cities because you need more roads to get the city connection. Those road maintenance start adding up which does make a part of the UA not as good unless all your cities are coastal.

    Regarding CERN, it generally comes too late to have an impact as the game is mostly won by then. Therefore, I don't see how Hockey Rinks will make a dent in the diplomatic game at this point. Assuming the player has been focusing on diplomacy, this stage should be the player SOI the CS so the influence doesn't matter. 20/25 :c5influence: Influence isn't that relevant this late in the game and coups/rigging elections are far more powerful regardless.

    The Coureurs des bois is an interesting unit. You make some good points but I wonder about the tech of this unit. Basically, the unit is available late Medieval Era. If you went Authority, they aren't as bad but you still need to choose between UB and UU. If you went Progress, then the Forbidden Palace might heavily delay this unit so you use it less. You have these three techs that are all important in their own ways for Progress. Given that Canada's UA is already pretty weak early game, why is the mid-game setup in a way where it takes quite long to get everything going? With Hockey Rink and Expeditionary Forces being very late, I think moving where the UU and UB are unlocked would be ideal to avoid this awkward situation.

    The Expeditionary Force is, in its current version, not great due to its offensive nature. As I said before, Foreign Legions can be a more powerful force if you went Authority. If the Expeditionary Force can have more defensive perks in foreign territory that keeps them alive longer, I think it's better. I know historically they are meant for offense but the late game for civ is a whole different situation when air and ranged units are the main damage dealers. Attacking in enemy territory can great lower the survivability of the UU and that can hinder one's push. Further defense against air attacks and ranged units can be pretty nice but I also don't want them buffed so much that they are broken.
     
  15. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    v13 posted:
    Code:
    UA:
    adjusted how secret extra bonus land range is given. Now +50% land trade route range in all cities, not just the capital.
    
    CEF:
    CS increased to 56
    Added Fights stronger damaged
    
    Hockey Rink:
    Increased instant yields to 1000 for GAP/Tourism/Culture.
    Increased influence bonus to 25 on completion
    
    Re: the tech spread on the UCs, I really don't like how other civs stack techs. Looking at you, Japan/Spain. If you put everything on 1 tech then there's only 1 optimal tech progression, and your decisions are limited as a player.
    The Forbidden palace being on a different medieval tech is really of no concern to me. A Progress Canada doesn't necessarily have to get it, nor is it really that important a wonder for Canada anyways. That's even if you go Progress which, as you said, is maybe not even the best choice. Alhambra is on Canada's tech path, so maybe that's just one more reason.

    The UA's land claim ability being hard to use, or even impossible to use in certain games also is not of much concern to me. It's not a particularly strong bonus in any case. I have managed to use it in at least 2 games to block off a corner of my continent, but it's primarily there for flavour (York Factory Express, CP Railway). I had considered adding some gold or other yield if caravans manage to gain tiles in this way, but I think adding more emphasis to this feature will make players contort their playstyle in ridiculous ways, and ultimately make bad city placement decisions.
     
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  16. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    Why don't routes create city connection though? Simple enough of a buff, no?
     
  17. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Hard to do. Not sure if possible. TRs already eliminate isolation, which is the main reason to build roads in that early stage.
     
  18. gwennog

    gwennog Warlord

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    Or why trade routes do not create roads between cities?
     
  19. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    That's basically what I meant.
     
  20. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Because 9 times out of 10 you want a road placed there, but sometimes you don’t. Maybe a city is already connected via sea connection and you don’t need the road, maybe you can’t swing the road maintenance right now, or maybe your caravan goes cross-country, even though a road already exists. You always want more borders, on the other hand.
     

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