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Colonialist Legacies' Canadian Dominion for VP

Discussion in 'Mods Repository' started by pineappledan, Nov 15, 2018.

  1. KittyKat3120

    KittyKat3120 Warlord

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    So I just downloaded the mod and noticed that it has 5uc?
    other than the ones stated on the first page there is an additional unique jet fighter?
     
  2. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  3. KittyKat3120

    KittyKat3120 Warlord

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    oooh thats very nice!

    but is it unbalance compared to other civs as it has an additional uc?
     
  4. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  5. KittyKat3120

    KittyKat3120 Warlord

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    Ah I see

    Thats a very nice addition thankchu dan for the easter egg! <3
     
  6. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  7. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  8. SolutionIt

    SolutionIt Chieftain

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    Hey so I've only ever seen one person make a critique of this civ being weak, and it only really pointed out one flaw with it. Since then I've been tweaking this civ for my own personal use to try and make viable. The reason I say try to make viable mind you is because currently I believe this civ in its current state is very weak.

    So let me start off with the gameplan you had in mind with Canada. And I will quote the following:

    "Reserved.

    • Diplomatic, expansionist civ, but focused on Gold/Culture, Aggressive wide settlement that requires a lot of land to take advantage of its UA, but doesn't have strong offensive tools.
    • Settle aggressively and link your cities using internal trade routes to create massive border blobs, cutting off parts of your continent from other civs.
    • Canada excels at using an "aggressively defensive posture", dotting its land with forts and citadels to make sure the True North stays strong and free.
    • Coureurs des Bois don't completely recoup the cost of the unit with their diplomatic action, and they aren't as strong as Envoys, but they are very fast and don't use paper. With the high gold income from other sources, you should be able to spam CdBs for a reliable source of CS influence. I hope you like Micro!"
    Spoiler :

    To criticize the first point which is the one that ought to have the most contention applied to it. For a civ that has no early game UU units and whose ability to claim up land requires immense amounts of set-up and can have its path influenced by where other cities settle, they cannot actually effectively carry out this strategy with their current garrison yields before the HBC comes online. This civ is barely any better than a standard civ at forward settling because it cannot rush culture to effectively pick up the imperium policy and on top of that trading internally requires 4 techs, a granary, a trade unit, and a unit to defend the forward settled city and garrison it. If you make the comparison to America and the Shoshone all they need is some gold for America respectively, and the Shoshone just the settler. When you make the comparison and consider how ineffective the starting yields are for a garrison at defending that forward settled city you start to see the flaw in the expansionist portion just for forward settling.

    So what are the pros about this very long set-up? Not very many considering the cons:

    - 50% trade route range bonus (amazing for early game diplomacy by trading to city-states. this is arguably the best portion of the trade route buffs)
    - Claiming tiles to settle later or deincentivize other civs from settling in the general area. (Pisses off other civs with land grabs and makes you a big target so it is double-edged)
    - Picking up tiles near a civ's cities to pop a great general on and claim tiles on. (Weaker set-up heavier version of what America does.)

    So this is basically all you get for cons of a costly set-up and no early UUs or for that matter unit supply to defend the forward settled city. Hell forts don't even get unlocked quick enough before other civs just start placing too many cities for you to properly defend the forward settled city.

    This is however not even the end of this criticism for the first point. Next we have to talk about how weak the improved yields on forts are and how even planting a garrison on them doesn't really solve the issue at hand. So the biggest flaw of the fort is that it doesn't get much more improvements on the yields as you research techs. That isn't necessarily an issue with Canada. However the yields applied by Canada to the forts are genuinely not worth the investment of actually making the fort, especially when you consider you need to make the HBC in the first place for the yields to apply.

    I'll show the current yields and compare them to mine along with what the citadel gets:

    Base Mod:

    INSERT INTO Building_ImprovementYieldChangesGlobal
    (BuildingType, ImprovementType, YieldType, Yield)
    VALUES ('BUILDING_CLHUDSONSBAY', 'IMPROVEMENT_FORT', 'YIELD_CULTURE', 1),
    ('BUILDING_CLHUDSONSBAY', 'IMPROVEMENT_FORT', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
    ('BUILDING_CLHUDSONSBAY', 'IMPROVEMENT_CITADEL', 'YIELD_CULTURE', 1),
    ('BUILDING_CLHUDSONSBAY', 'IMPROVEMENT_CITADEL', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1);

    My Tweaks:

    INSERT INTO Building_ImprovementYieldChangesGlobal
    (BuildingType, ImprovementType, YieldType, Yield)
    VALUES ('BUILDING_CLHUDSONSBAY', 'IMPROVEMENT_FORT', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
    ('BUILDING_CLHUDSONSBAY', 'IMPROVEMENT_FORT', 'YIELD_CULTURE', 1),
    ('BUILDING_CLHUDSONSBAY', 'IMPROVEMENT_FORT', 'YIELD_GOLDEN_AGE_POINTS', 1),
    ('BUILDING_CLHUDSONSBAY', 'IMPROVEMENT_FORT', 'YIELD_GREAT_GENERAL_POINTS', 1),
    ('BUILDING_CLHUDSONSBAY', 'IMPROVEMENT_CITADEL', 'YIELD_GREAT_GENERAL_POINTS', 1),
    ('BUILDING_CLHUDSONSBAY', 'IMPROVEMENT_CITADEL', 'YIELD_GOLD', 1),
    ('BUILDING_CLHUDSONSBAY', 'IMPROVEMENT_CITADEL', 'YIELD_CULTURE', 1),
    ('BUILDING_CLHUDSONSBAY', 'IMPROVEMENT_CITADEL', 'YIELD_GOLDEN_AGE_POINTS', 1),
    ('BUILDING_CLHUDSONSBAY', 'IMPROVEMENT_CITADEL', 'YIELD_SCIENCE', 1);

    Your current yields are far too weak to justify even building forts just to get the garrison bonus which mind you requires you to have the supply to even supplement it so you're wasting building maintenance and unit maintenance which is already -2 gold. So here is where I'm going to explain the justification for my yields and I'm also going to explain my current garrison bonus yields to finish the criticism for the first point.

    I didn't want forts and citadels to outright behave like great person improvements and still wanted the garrison to matter. However I wanted to put an emphasis on being able to start spam producing GGs in order to defend territories you claimed more efficiently gold-wise by incentivizing you to use the great generals you get to create some extra supply. This also helps defend your forward settled cities much more effectively without just spamming units. Golden Age Points are mainly just an extra thing applied there to help Canada's culture victory while also defending them a little more from other people's culture victories. These yields should incentivize building more forts instead of standard improvements without being far too strong.

    To quickly finish this point and to return to the first part of the criticism, I also changed the garrison yields at the start of the game to be 1 GP, 2 GGP, and 1 Culture. 2 extra gold at the start of the game is meaningless since it won't get you extra units quickly enough. The culture allows an imperium rush to be a little more feasible and allow you to pick up a settler quickly enough for that lengthy set-up. and the GGP increase is to help defend that new city much more quickly and get an extra garrison going in quicker. I also want to make it clear that this point of culture on garrison doesn't help expand the city's border by the way and that HBC garrison yields remain unchanged.


    I'm going to go ahead and skip the second and third points though since I think I already got my point across.

    Spoiler :

    To criticize the 4th point. The Coureur Des Bois is definitely an interesting unit, but comes with some notable flaws compared to an envoy.

    Pros:

    - Movement bonuses from Portage, Ignores terrain costs, and Trailblazers.
    - Can defend itself.
    - No purchase cooldown.
    - No paper required.
    - Pays for itself to some extent)

    Cons:

    - Slower than envoys when conditions for movement bonus not present.
    - Cannot share same tile as other military units. (Effectively bars it from reaching city-states surrounded by too many units)
    - Cannot enter rival territory.
    - Does not benefit from Roman Forum or summer palace. (Personally I'm fine with this)
    - Harbor required. (Biggest flaw, Canada doesn't seem to have a coastal start bias, and forcing coastal settles means having to divy up your supply between a navy and an army.)

    This unit is effectively just not as good overall as a standard envoy. However I think the simplest fix you can give this unit is to increase its natural move by 1 and remove the harbor requirement. It'll still be incapable of reaching certain city-states but it won't have such a counter-intuitive restriction when forward settling on a city-state in the middle of a continent and be able to increase a city-states influence a little quicker.


    Spoiler :

    My final criticism which is not mentioned in the Gameplan is the final portion of the UA. Trading out a Diplomat in exchange for a spy when this civ already struggles technology-wise isn't really a good trade-off just for one vote. The only pro of this ability is the free vote so I'm just going to list off the cons real quick:

    - If a civilization is at war with you, you can not station a Diplomat on their capital.
    - Diplomats cannot steal tech and only tell you what a civ wants in the World Congress. (This may as well be worthless cause a civ can tell you what resolution they might want through trading with you)
    - 1 vote for wasting a spy is incredibly weak compared to what other civs get diplomacy-wise. (Think Germany and Austria bonuses, especially when they don't rely on other players who can be finnicky)
    - That same spy could be used to influence a city-state instead.

    What do I suggest to fix this? Real simple honestly. Make a diplomat's rank determine the extra votes. So a maxed out spy gives 3 votes, a recruit gives 1 vote, and the one in the between both ranks is 2 votes. 3 votes for being chill with other people is really strong and even though the same hard counter applies if you consider everything else I suggested you could effectively just bully someone into not going to war with you if they are a player. This part of the UA doesn't have to be comparable to what Germany and Austria get for Diplo abilities, but it is definitely undertuned.


    Anyways this is what I suggest to properly buff this civ to viability IF you don't want to change the UA outright. I'm going to stray off the path here and recommend slightly different UAs for this civ that would make it work better.

    New UA ideas:

    Spoiler :


    1. Land Trade Routes go 50% farther and Internal Land Trade Routes claim up neutral tiles. Forts are unlocked immediately, claim adjacent neutral tiles, and provide one supply upon being built. Garrisons in Cities, Forts, and Citadels provide Gold, Culture, and Great General Points. +2 votes for Canada and +1 for a Civilization you have a DoF with and they can't terminate their DoF. (Allows intended gameplan to function properly. CONQUEST FOCUSED)

    2. Land Trade Routes go 50% farther and Internal Land Trade Routes claim up neutral tiles. Garrisons in Cities, Forts, and Citadels provide Gold, Culture, and Great General Points. Free Spy at the start of the game and Diplomats stationed in Foreign Capitals give extra votes depending on their rank and initiate a peace treaty between Canada and said civilization. (peace treaty prevents hard countering the UA and defends them from an enemy civ that could threaten them. DIPLOMACY FOCUSED)

     
  9. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    the land grab ability is weak, but it’s only 1 part of a 3-part UA. Comparing it to Shoshone and America — civs which both have 2-part UAs and much weaker UCs — based ONLY on their ability to grab tiles is a bit myopic.

    I do need to reassess how the new Fort yield reworks, of which there have been 3 since I last changed Canada’s Fort yields, affect Canada’s power overall. I am definitely NOT going to add more GGeneral generation to Canada. In my own play tests I have been able to flood the game with so many GGenerals that the game runs out of names for them by industrial. I will look at some possibilities though.

    Re: the coureurs des bois, it is tricky to change the buildingclassrequired value to something different from the base unit, but I will see if it can. This also annoyed me quite a bit in my own games with Canada, especially because they don’t have a coast bias.

    I won’t be increasing their movement since, as you say, they are at least a side-grade to the mobility options on an envoy. However, your assessment is incorrect in some ways: envoys don’t get those movement bonuses until Printing press, and open borders is not until foreign bureaus in modern era. That is after the diplomat unit is unlocked and far later than I would expect you to still be using CdBs.

    Your complaints re: diplomats. You know you don’t HAVE to use your spies as diplomats all game, right? I won’t argue that spies are more useful before the late game, but your criticism ignores how good diplomats become in the end game. the bonuses that diplomats give (tourism bonus, vote brokering) are pretty useful, and all diplomats give +1 vote for all diplomats on empire at globalization, so Canada really gets +2 votes per diplomat. You can have between 5 and 10 spies by information, which is potentially 20 votes for the DV, which is potentially game winning. Boosting that further would very easily be OP.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
    Kim Dong Un, SolutionIt and Guynemer like this.
  10. SolutionIt

    SolutionIt Chieftain

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    I'm definitely glad you see some of my criticism in regards to the coureur des bois and corrected me where I wasn't completely right on that. I definitely think if you can remove the building requirement or just change it for something else that'd resolve the weird mismatch it has with the starting bias. Though honestly if it were me, and it'd still make some sense considering Canada has the largest coastline it'd just be easier to give a coastal start bias since it'd make the trade route portion a tiny bit stronger.

    When it comes to the garrison and fort yields I think our disagreement there comes from what game speeds we play on. I usually find that for passive play for Canada (for me it is when there isn't much land to play with) with my current yields I don't run into issues with GGenerals. Playing on Marathon also runs into issues with how valuable yields really are on garrison, but that is really part of the problem with balancing flat values compared to percentage based stuff that scales. But the real issue on Marathon is when I try to play expansionist with the untweaked version is that it just really isn't feasible because my garrison bonuses can only come from cities, and spamming cities early can spread you thin fast due to a lack of unit supply and proper city infrastructure in your capital and newly settled cities. If there was a way to get more garrisons early those issues wouldn't be there anymore. I personally don't know how you'd feel about early forts but I think the need to place a unit on them and their lackluster yields would easily keep them tame early on while providing proper early game defense for new settlements. But that would probably still run into issues with Great General spam that you don't want the civ to be capable of.

    I had forgotten again that globalization gives you the extra vote, but I still think the ability is fairly weak for the whole game and still very easy to hard counter by forcing a war on Canada. The AI wouldn't understand that but in the situation you play with other human players the ability might as well have no value at all. I understand myself I don't necessarily need to keep them permanently as Diplomats but why bother keeping a special agent as a Diplomat when you can have it influence a city-state instead? It is obvious I don't know how to best use Diplomats but I've never seen the need on Immortal if I take control of as many votes as possible and just defend myself from negative proposals while getting the yields from the city-states or disrupting other players and robbing their gold and techs.

    You definitely proved your counterpoint for Diplomat votes at the very end of the game, but let me at least suggest for the Diplomat Votes it at the very least allows the spy to stay in a foreign capital during a war as the most minimal buff to it. Although that also might be too strong since now those 20 votes you get can't get countered at the end of the game. Anything that works for preventing the obvious hard counter would be necessary though.

    As for the UCs, I've used them a bunch, more specifically the Expeditionary Force and I think they are fine myself! They come super late but as a UU the British Expeditionary Force is pretty damn good for taking back conquered city states and pushing back after years of oppression from neighboring civs. Hockey Rink's free influence to nearby city-states is a great touch too for grabbing a few more votes towards the end of the game.

    Eitherway thanks for listening to me! I don't like to put work on you guys so I try my best to resolve what I feel tend to be shortcomings on a civ. I'll see what values I should adjust here since you do bring a good point in regards to Great Generals running out of names. Probably means too many GGs are getting created. I might make everything be the untweaked version and try to figure out how to get forts unlocked at the start of the game for Canada and see how that goes.

    P.S. So far every other civ made by you that I've played feels right other than the Inuit but you've seen me post there too.
     
    pineappledan likes this.
  11. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Perhaps there is a wider discussion that needs to be had about the usefulness of diplomats?
    Also, I couldn't find a good place to mention this in the help text, but I forgot that the HBC also boosts spies' steal gold action probability by 15%, up from the EIC's base 10%. So Canada has both a modest spy bonus too.

    There's no easy way to move improvement unlocks, unfortunately. I would rather Canada simply augment forts as they exist; they unlock fairly early so it's not a big deal, imo.
    I didn't want to change things too soon after the fort yields got changed -- give it time for the dust to settle -- so now I can look at this a little more clearly.
    Currently forts have the following yields:
    1:( base

    2:c5science: at chemistry
    2:( at military science
    4:c5science: at stealth
    4:( at electronics

    1:c5culture:2:c5science: from Imperialism
    3:c5science: from Autocracy

    1:c5gold:1:c5culture: from the HBC
    2:c5culture:2:c5goldenage: from Menin Gate

    This current setup pushes some of the yields later than they used to be, and BGPs are very low value. The first tech boost is 3 tech levels after fort unlocks, so HBC has a gap the size of the entire Medieval period to cover and bring the power curve up for Canada's forts.

    I think the easiest thing is the best thing: Increase the HBC yields on fort to 2:c5gold:2:c5culture:
    functionally, that gives Canada a 2:c5culture:2:c5gold:1:( improvement in late medieval which goes up to 2:c5culture:2:c5gold:2:c5science:1:( 1 tech later at Chemistry.
    Compare to French Chateau at that level: 3:c5food:3:c5gold:3:c5culture:,
    or a fully boosted village: 5:c5gold:2:c5production:1:c5culture:
    The Canada fort is a bit weaker than a real Unique improvement at that stage, but that's fair; they aren't a real UI, after all. With the additional 4:c5gold:2:c5culture:1:c5capital: you get for manning the fort; the total of 6:c5gold:4:c5culture:2:c5science:1:c5capital:1:( is more than competitive at that tech level.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
  12. InkAxis

    InkAxis Prince

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    I actually am modding something where I had something pretty similiar, it's actually pretty simple, I'm pretty sure this would work:
    Code:
    DELETE FROM Unit_BuildingClassPurchaseRequireds WHERE UnitType = 'UNIT_EXAMPLE';
    I'm interested in the new canada changes, I was going to play them then the fort yields changed and I decided to wait for an update.
    (Though I actually haven't played any civ since then, just been modding, not actually playing :lol:)
     

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