Colonialist Legacies: Histories of the New World | Colonial + Pre-Colonial civs

[Hoop Thrower]

I think the main complaint here is that many RTS descended into clickfests these days, with Starcraft being the main culprit, actually depicting that as a feature...

Regardless, is there any reason for why the Anangu can't found a religion? I can't really see a reason for it in that design.

 

[SargontheGreat2]

There became a lot of RTS games that stopped being about Strategy at all and deserve to be called "Real Time Army Management without much Management" games. Or what my cousin called "Empire Building Games" although that sounds a lot like 4X Strategy.

*cough**cough*Total War*cough**cough*

The "Empire Building Games" sound a lot like Paradox Grand Strategy Games, which should belong in their own category.

 

[dilophosaur]

I think the main complaint here is that many RTS descended into clickfests these days, with Starcraft being the main culprit, actually depicting that as a feature...

Regardless, is there any reason for why the Anangu can't found a religion? I can't really see a reason for it in that design.

I completely agree. Most of nowadays RTS are nothing more than clickfest. Click faster to win (or not to die) Cossacks/first titles of Age of Anything series are exceptions.

 

[LoneRebel]

Many real-time "RTS" games are more of real-time tactics than strategy. Cue "RTS" elitists saying that fast-paced Starcraft/Warcraft are teh best strategy games quick fingers more important than long-term planning MUH KOREAN 300 APM.

 

[turingmachine]

Regardless, is there any reason for why the Anangu can't found a religion? I can't really see a reason for it in that design.

I have to agree with this. Completely turns me off from playing the civ.

 

[TPangolin]

Regardless, is there any reason for why the Anangu can't found a religion? I can't really see a reason for it in that design.

That's more of a leftover from the original design - that had special Dreamtime bonuses whenever you entered a Golden Age. It's also to represent the Anangu not really having a religion persay.

We have to have a look at a couple of things when it comes to the Anangu UA design:

If we decide to keep the lack of a Religion, we have to boost the amount that Faith contributes to Border Expansion alongside boosting the amount of Golden Age points from discovering wonders and claiming new tiles. Near-constant Golden Ages and faster, more efficient border expansion could help make up for the lack of a Religion. We should also note that you can still choose a Pantheon (so Desert Folkore will still be able to snowball you into oblivion).

If we decide to ditch the lack of a Religion, we have to nerf the amount that Faith contributes to Border Expansion alongside boosting the amount of Golden Age points from discovering wonders and claiming new tiles.

 

[turingmachine]

It's also to represent the Anangu not really having a religion persay.

If you're going to use that line of thinking then the Blackfoot, Dene, Inuit, Cree don't really have a religion, per se. Idk, I just see that reasoning as a really offensive belittling of indigenous spirituality.

 

[TPangolin]

Spoiler :

I just see that reasoning as a really offensive belittling of indigenous spirituality.

I included that line about representing the lack of Religion as a sidenote - not as the reasoning for not including a Religion. If you honestly think we're out there trying to belittle cultures and their inherent spirituality, then I'm really sorry you feel that way. If anything, Colonialist Legacies aims to celebrate indigenous cultures in an accessible format.

The older Anangu trait included a lack of Religion alongside unique Dreamtime bonuses, which served as additional psuedo-Pantheons for the user to choose from. This was to represent the lack of an institutionalised Religion and subsequently aimed to represent the deeply ingrained spiritual Culture of the Anangu Aboriginals. Since we're trying to cut down the immense amount of work we have already made for ourselves - I aimed to trim the civ down to it's core playstyle so as to simplify an already complex idea.

We can either keep the lack of Religion or not. Either way is fine by me - we just need to consider the exact Golden Age/Faith Values (Lack of Religion = More Faith-Border Expansion, More Golden Age Points - Religion = Less Faith-Border Expansion, Less Golden Age Points).

 

[Hoop Thrower]

If we decide to ditch the lack of a Religion, we have to nerf the amount that Faith contributes to Border Expansion alongside boosting the amount of Golden Age points from discovering wonders and claiming new tiles.

I vote for this, the lack of Religion sounds like a hindrance for the sake of having one. At least Armenia and Lithuania have reasons to not be able to found religions, here it's feels it's "just because".

Besides, the UA sounds interesting enough even if the bonus is slightly marginal, getting extra stuff just from discovering Natural Wonders sounds amazing already.

 

[shaglio]

We should also note that you can still choose a Pantheon (so Desert Folkore will still be able to snowball you into oblivion).

Is it possible to code it so that they keep their Pantheon even if another Religion spreads to their cities?

 

[Scapegrace]

How about this:

UA: Emu In The Sky
Cannot found a Religion. Instead, Great Prophets increase the effects of your Pantheon and generate points towards a Golden Age when expended. Faith counts towards Border Expansion and its generation is doubled during a Golden Age.

I think that's more in line with what friend TP was trying to go for. It still has an emphasis on Faith and GA points, but in a slightly different way - rather than getting a more centralist, organized religion, you stick to the old ways and can have this incredible super-pantheon... until people start spamming Missionaries at you. It's a more thematic tradeoff that emphasises the difference between Anangu and European cultural values.

No idea what to do for the Bora Ring and Warmala, though, largely because they seem pretty much fine. =]

 

[SuperWaffle247]

I think increasing the effects of the Pantheon isn't mod-compatible. I also think that there needs to be something more to do with all this faith. Border expansion is great and very flavorful, I'd love to play it, but I feel like there should be something more going on.

 

[OrderofOlav]

It doesn't make a Civ become unplayable when it doesn't allow you to establish a religion, I mean, not being able to found one just happens (sometimes intentionally) now and again. How would it be a hindrance when you know from the start you will not get one? Now you can focus on other things, which I'm sure this Civ will provide in form of another bonus.

 

[turingmachine]

rather than getting a more centralist, organized religion, you stick to the old ways and can have this incredible super-pantheon... until people start spamming Missionaries at you. It's a more thematic tradeoff that emphasises the difference between Anangu and European cultural values.

Civ celebrates individual cultures and explores alternative histories; it is not a history simulator. What you point out is instead choosing to focus on the oppression of a minority culture while also treating their spirituality as primitive and inferior to that of the majority culture that oppressed it.

It doesn't make a Civ become unplayable when it doesn't allow you to establish a religion, I mean, not being able to found one just happens (sometimes intentionally) now and again. How would it be a hindrance when you know from the start you will not get one? Now you can focus on other things, which I'm sure this Civ will provide in form of another bonus.

Removing an option from the player doesn't make something more enjoyable. You could always focus on other things, this ability just forces you to.

 

[Scapegrace]

I see you are determined to be offended by this and that nothing I say will change your mind. I'd just like to point out, though, that I am seriously unconvinced that someone embarking on a postgraduate degree in pre-colonial West African history is likely to consider the cultural heritage of an oppressed people inferior in any way. Just throwing that out there for the hard of thinking.

 

[Civitar]

"Help, help! I'm being oppressed!"

Honestly, how is it focusing on the oppression of a culture to keep them from founding an organized religion? If a people never had an organized, centralized religion, what have they lost? And if they got along just fine with what in real life amounts to a pantheon why would they need a central religion?
Particularly if they receive bonuses to their pantheon, this wouldn't be removing an option from a player for no reason - it would be rather nicely representing the way of life of that people. I do think that the Aboriginals would need a defense against Missionaries though, since they will not have Inquisitors available. Perhaps a Shaman unit that drains one spread religion use per turn spent next to a Missionary of another religion?
While I don't know much about Aboriginal religion, I do know they had nothing remotely resembling an organized religion, not even much continuity of beliefs from tribe to tribe. If your people's "religion" is a collection of superstitions and spirit-calling witch-doctoring, I don't really think you have anything to evangelize to other people or any reason to stamp out new beliefs among your own people - which is what Civ5's religion gives you.
And, I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but: did you say CL would be treating the spirituality of a minority people as primitive? Might that be because... Aboriginals were pretty darn primitive as long as they were left to their own devices? Why is calling a primitive people primitive an insult? It's not like we're calling them apes...

 

[OrderofOlav]

if they receive bonuses to their pantheon, this wouldn't be removing an option from a player for no reason

Exactly what I meant , you are not removing anything, just replacing.

 

[Gyra Solune]

But if they can't found a religion how will the Historical Religions one for the aboriginals ever be founded on a map? (okay well there's still the Koori i guess)

 

[Neirai]

Let me try to shed some light here.

In Civ5 by default, all civilizations are religious, which all good because spirituality is a huge thing, but.....

1) All Civ religions are pantheon-based. But not all historical religions were. Judaism (I'm going to use this one a lot) is intensely monotheistic, and therefore doesn't have a pantheon. True Pantheism doesn't have a pantheon because everything in nature is divine.
2) All Civ religions are evangelical in nature -- that is, they want other people to join their religion. Again, (historical) Judaism is not. It's actually a lot more exclusivist, believing that Jews are God's true people and that Judaism should be kept pure, not spread to other nations. Similarly, it is extremely hard for people to join Wakan Tanka. You have to jump through a lot of hoops and prove yourself to be worthy before members will even tell you about it.

The Anangu religion (or religionless) model was meant to bring in some other models of religion than just Pantheon -- Missionaries.

 

[Neirai]

So, specifically, it is not that the Anangu religious identity is "underdeveloped" but that it is rather unlike the European religious identity in many ways.

Some of these ways make it likely that we will tamper with religion in general.
Some of these ways actually make it very hard to implement the idea in the game in a way that does not do injustice to the actual beliefs of the Anangu. Their "Dreams" are prized immaterial possessions and cannot just be copied, even in a game. So we're going to have to work with an idea instead of a real representation.