Combat mechanics - supply line

ShadowWarrior

Prince
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Jun 7, 2001
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Military units that move out of the border of its mother civ will suffer attrition each turn unless they are supplied.

Military units outside its mother civ border will automatically be supplied, and this will be reflected in the form of increased maintenance cost for each unit. The farther away the units are from their own border, the higher the supply line cost, and thus the higher the maintenance cost.

The supply line will be marked out by a clear white line similar to trade routes. The moment the military units move out of its border, that white supply line connecting to the military units will immediately appears.

Any enemy units which occupy the hex that the supply line pass through has the option to intercept the supply line. If interception is made, the supplied units will suffer attrition.
 
You should only have to prepare supply chariots at the start of your armies travel. You should estimate how many turns a chariot will cost, I don't know the realistic ratio but you should need x production (variable number of turns) to travel y days (fixed number of turns). When in the enemy territory, you supply on place with enemy's granaries and such.

That is, IF the enemy let you do. If he doesn't, that's a massive disaster, and taking the risk to be so is not valid IMO. That's why I believe that in ancient times (and maybe mordern too, at some point), some wars were more like, in terms of Civ, building a wonder (creating and supporting an army, sending armies of spying in your enemy's land to see if he is preparing war, is more or less "harmless" or the weak points of his geography/city carpet) with maybe several steps, like 1.spying 2. Pretend and have a regular army "for defense" 3. building equipements and siege weapons in secret (idealy in or near "encampments") 4. Recruit soldiers, in the most discreat way possible 5. Train soldiers in "encampments". 6. Launch a surprise attack.

As you see, a war works a little like the Science Victory. And yet, my example in only for surprise wars, and yet again, surprise wars for logistics purposes (to avoid disasters).

You could also do such projects in suspicion of an attack maybe ? In that case, the "spying" part may alert the possible attacker of change of plans. This could escalate in Formal War. (WWI)

Instead or along with some steps, you may have to choose a policy card.
 
Granted, not all wars in reality seem to require such preparation, I have in mind particularly Alexander the Great conquests. In that case, the objective lurker may think it's because of some Might (great general, UU, golden age, technological superiority, etc. wich are more or less about the same thing summed up as "Golden Age"), something that Civ series has always tried to simulate. Maybe there's no such thing as "Might". Maybe Alexander the Great planned each of his invasions with spies, surprise attacks, and when he became more famous, fear, and/or respect for not pillaging cities, at least not killing everybody. ("Surrender and you will be fine. Promise") (even seen as some kind of liberator !) Alexander the Great couldn't conquer the whole world because he has been fatally injured, meaning he was actually fighting with his troops, giving them courage and admiration. (and, endurance and morale in face of all the hard travels and fights far from their families and home) Maybe also that such fast and aggressive warfare was invented by Alexander the Great. He had a particular way to conduct his wars. Maybe, the time people start to figure out its strategies, he could have conquer the whole world. Or maybe this type of aggression had no parade, except Alexander's death itself. So, maybe that the only Might here was Alexander himself. And maybe also, his golden-aged education, as a product of his epoch. (like Hitler was, see "Mein Kampf") And maybe also the efficiency of his troops. (golden age, again, ans so on...)
 
Alexander the Great's army had a well-established and organized system for supply: there was an entire academic work written years ago on "The Logistics of the Macedonian Army". Basically, used carts and pack animals to haul what supplies were needed day to day, levied supplies from cities they conquered or passed (and, increasingly, paid Hard Money for the supplies, which encouraged the locals to supply the army without coercion required) and, as mentioned, Kept His Word. If you surrendered or stayed quiet, you were left largely alone, kept your local institutions, and paid little more in taxes than the Persians had levied. Local Rulers who submitted (Porus in India or Mazaeus in Persian Babylon, two prime examples) might actually have their authority and prestige enlarged under Alexander, giving the entire local leadership good reason to think twice about opposing him.

Ironically, all of these mechanics have worked throughout history for armies other than Alexander's. When the Duke of Marlborough took his army across Germany in 1704, his Quartermaster, Cadogan, moved a day ahead of the army, laying out camp sites and visiting all the local towns with bags of Hard Coin to tell them to bring supplies to the camp sites for Cash - which they enthusiastically did all across the country. The army arrived in Bavaria with virtually no losses to straggling, guerrilla action, or disease. In contrast, the French Army coming through the Black Forest from France reached Bavaria having pillaged their way through that part of Germany and stirred up such resistance that they were fighting guerrilla actions for the last half of their march, and arrived hungry and exhausted.

The German Army that invaded the Soviet Union on 22 June 1941 planned to supply itself with food by, basically, pillaging the country as they conquered it. As a result of that imbecilic supply planning, the army was on short rations before it got within 200 km of Moscow, and the Geman 6th Army at Stalingrad a year later was on half-rations Before it got surrounded, because it was, essentially, beyond its supply lines when it reached the city on the Volga.

Supply and Supply Lines are complicated, which, I suspect, is why they have been quietly ignored in games. On the other hand, tracing supply lines and 'counting' how much supply is available are the kinds of number-crunching actions that a computer can do really well so that the gamer doesn't have to - just deal with the results, which would remove a lot of the micro-management from the process.
I have suggested (long ago in a Forum near at hand) that, in keeping with Civ's City Emphasis, supply should be traced to the nearest Friendly City, with the length of supply line dependent on technology and terrain, if the army is bigger than the city you need a longer multi-city supply line. Railroads and Ports would allow supply to eventually be traced nearly World-Wide with, perhaps, a requirement to build Logistics Centers or Depots representing the massive investment required to support intercontinental actions (the US military in WWII had 4 - 5 men in Rear Service/Supply operations for every man in a combat unit, to give you an idea of the required Infrastructure)
 
The supply line mechanics that I have proposed in this thread is not proposed to add new complexity to this game. Rather, it is one of hte few throngs in a larger effort to bring back multiple units per hex while tempering the stack of doom horror that terrifies so many players.

Stack of doom is scary because players are confronted with the possibility throughout the game that at any time, a huge army may suddenly show up right next to your city and catches you completely by surprise. The supply line mechanics that I proposed is one way to eliminate that stack of doom impact. By being able to intercept the enemy's supply line, the enemy army risks attrition for each turn that the supply line is not restored. A stack of doom is not as powerful as its size suggests if it weakens and fights at only 2/3 of its full capacity due to lack of supply.

The stack of doom problem will be further resolved if spies mechanics can add new features allowing spies to provide useful information about the rival's military. The deployment of a spy to an enemy capital might allow us access to information regarding the size of the enemy's army and its composition (how many archers, how many swordsmen, how many catapult throughout the rival empire?). Alternatively, the spy might reveal to us the actual movement of any rival army that march through one of its city. For example, if I install a spy in the city A, which is an enemy city that boarders mine, I will be able to see any enemy armies that march through the radius of city A. If the spy reveals that a huge stack of enemy army just marched right into city A, I might need to be on the look out for the possibility of a war.

The point is that my goal in proposing the supply line feature that I did was not to add new tactical complexity to this game. Its simply to make stack of doom less formidable. This is why I prefer a very simple supply line mechanic that involves a visible supply line connecting the army and the home empire. There's no need to calculate the ratio of supply needed to the size of the army. There's no need to spend turns building supply wagons. The moment the army moves out of its boarder, the supply line cost will be reflected right away in the drastic increase in maintenance cost. This make supply line mechanics less burdensome all the while making stack of doom less intimidating as well.
 
The supply line mechanics that I have proposed in this thread is not proposed to add new complexity to this game. Rather, it is one of hte few throngs in a larger effort to bring back multiple units per hex while tempering the stack of doom horror that terrifies so many players.

Stack of doom is scary because players are confronted with the possibility throughout the game that at any time, a huge army may suddenly show up right next to your city and catches you completely by surprise. The supply line mechanics that I proposed is one way to eliminate that stack of doom impact. By being able to intercept the enemy's supply line, the enemy army risks attrition for each turn that the supply line is not restored. A stack of doom is not as powerful as its size suggests if it weakens and fights at only 2/3 of its full capacity due to lack of supply.

The stack of doom problem will be further resolved if spies mechanics can add new features allowing spies to provide useful information about the rival's military. The deployment of a spy to an enemy capital might allow us access to information regarding the size of the enemy's army and its composition (how many archers, how many swordsmen, how many catapult throughout the rival empire?). Alternatively, the spy might reveal to us the actual movement of any rival army that march through one of its city. For example, if I install a spy in the city A, which is an enemy city that boarders mine, I will be able to see any enemy armies that march through the radius of city A. If the spy reveals that a huge stack of enemy army just marched right into city A, I might need to be on the look out for the possibility of a war.

The point is that my goal in proposing the supply line feature that I did was not to add new tactical complexity to this game. Its simply to make stack of doom less formidable. This is why I prefer a very simple supply line mechanic that involves a visible supply line connecting the army and the home empire. There's no need to calculate the ratio of supply needed to the size of the army. There's no need to spend turns building supply wagons. The moment the army moves out of its boarder, the supply line cost will be reflected right away in the drastic increase in maintenance cost. This make supply line mechanics less burdensome all the while making stack of doom less intimidating as well.

Way back in Civ V days when 1UPT and SOD were first being debated I proposed that the solution to the Stack was a realistic Supply Rule. Being a military historian, I can quote numerous instances where concentrating an army was absolutely dependent on supply available, and other instances where armies were forced to disperse because there simply wasn't enough to feed them all in any one place. Transport those effects into the game, and a stack/concentration of units becomes something you can only do after preparing for it, and a stack without such preparation is Doomed, not Doom.

Today I would argue for a tactical battle lay-out along the lines that the Humankind game is showing, but that makes penalties for concentration of forces no less important, because a large army of units in that form is just as unstoppable as the old SOD.

The fact that the entire Supply Line mechanic and effect can be 'invisibly' calculated by the computer for us so that a relatively few rules about effects and consequences are all the gamer has to deal with make it, IMHO, even more important to include some form of Supply mechanism in Civ VII.

As an aside, some Great Generals were notoriously good at keeping their troops supplied, so bonuses connected to some of the Great Generals regarding Supply (extending the length of supply lines, or where they can be traced from, or what terrain they can be traced over - lots of possibilities) would be appropriate and another 'Civ Peculiar' part of the game (because Humankind has NO Great Generals, so individual-inspired mechanics are missing there)
 
Way back in Civ V days when 1UPT and SOD were first being debated I proposed that the solution to the Stack was a realistic Supply Rule. Being a military historian, I can quote numerous instances where concentrating an army was absolutely dependent on supply available, and other instances where armies were forced to disperse because there simply wasn't enough to feed them all in any one place. Transport those effects into the game, and a stack/concentration of units becomes something you can only do after preparing for it, and a stack without such preparation is Doomed, not Doom.

Today I would argue for a tactical battle lay-out along the lines that the Humankind game is showing, but that makes penalties for concentration of forces no less important, because a large army of units in that form is just as unstoppable as the old SOD.

The fact that the entire Supply Line mechanic and effect can be 'invisibly' calculated by the computer for us so that a relatively few rules about effects and consequences are all the gamer has to deal with make it, IMHO, even more important to include some form of Supply mechanism in Civ VII.

As an aside, some Great Generals were notoriously good at keeping their troops supplied, so bonuses connected to some of the Great Generals regarding Supply (extending the length of supply lines, or where they can be traced from, or what terrain they can be traced over - lots of possibilities) would be appropriate and another 'Civ Peculiar' part of the game (because Humankind has NO Great Generals, so individual-inspired mechanics are missing there)

Being that warfare is such a big element of Civ type games, I really think that game designers should listen more to military historians like you. Unfortunately, they don't.

There are other ways to make stack of doom less intimidating to players.

Stack of doom is scary also because cities conquered by the enemies are subjected to atrocities that will make rebuilding them very time consuming. Imagine having one of your mega metropolis that globally ranks number one in hammer production razed to the ground by an enemy army. That can be very demoralizing.

Moreover, if the mega metropolis has a population of 9, and the enemy army that marched right into that city has only two badly damaged units, its simply out of touch with reality to think that they will be able to carry out destruction as extreme as razing it to the ground.

I propose that armies which successfully capture an enemy city needs to continually be supplied from the home country until the entire city is subjugated. Subjugation might take several turns. The number of turns depends on a variety of factors. If the city conquered followed a faith that is very different from the faith followed by the home empire of the conquering army, subjugation period might increase in length. If the occupying army commits atrocities, such as razing cities, or killing the population, the subjugation will lengthen very dramatically. If the conquering army uses archers and swordsmen while the conquered cities are already in the internet era, subjugation period will take VERY LONG. If the conquered city has a population of 14, and the conquering army has only two badly damaged units, subjugation period will also take a long time. Great generals upgrade might contain abilities which decrease subjugation length.

If the army still needs to be supplied from the home empire during subjugation period, the supply line issue still exists for the conquering army. In another word, if the supply line is intercepted, the conquering army will continue to suffer attrition, and that will make them vulnerable to counter attack.

Therefore the occupying army has all the incentive in the world to "play nice" with the cities they conquered. Otherwise, they can't bring the occupied ciites under subjugation. Without successful subjugation, the conquering army will be reliant on supply from home empire. They won't be able to get supply from the cities they have conquered. As a result, the home empire will have to keep bearing the huge increase in maintenance cost, which, in my proposal, includes supply line cost.

If the occupying army has all the incentives in the world to play nice with their conquered subjects, we players are more confident that the cities that we lost to the enemies will not be so badly damaged during foreign occupation period. Moreover, since the occupying army needs several turns for subjugation, we still have a chance to destroy and kick the enemy out by intercepting their supply line. This is just another throng in making stack of doom less intimidating to players.

Furthermore, if the occupying army has a long supply line connecting its home empire to the city that it has conquered, I don't necessarily need to intercept the supply line on the very hex adjacent to the conquered city. I can intercept that supply line six or seven hex away. THat means that the occupying army now has to move its units out of the occupied city to fight my own military units that is intercepting its supply line. The more units redeployed to restore its supply line, the less units available to stay inside the conquered city. The less units available to guard the conquered city, the bigger the difference between the size of the city's population and the size of the occupying army. The bigger that gap is, the longer the subjugation period.
 
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Supply and Supply Lines are complicated, which, I suspect, is why they have been quietly ignored in games. On the other hand, tracing supply lines and 'counting' how much supply is available are the kinds of number-crunching actions that a computer can do really well so that the gamer doesn't have to - just deal with the results, which would remove a lot of the micro-management from the process.
There's a supply system in Jon Shafer's At the gates but it's tied to tiles (full supply in friendly regions) and seasons, so no "lines".
That makes movement a bit of micro-management but in a sensible way - not that tedious like in Civ, there pathing issues forces you.
I have suggested (long ago in a Forum near at hand) that, in keeping with Civ's City Emphasis, supply should be traced to the nearest Friendly City, with the length of supply line dependent on technology and terrain, if the army is bigger than the city you need a longer multi-city supply line. Railroads and Ports would allow supply to eventually be traced nearly World-Wide with, perhaps, a requirement to build Logistics Centers or Depots representing the massive investment required to support intercontinental actions (the US military in WWII had 4 - 5 men in Rear Service/Supply operations for every man in a combat unit, to give you an idea of the required Infrastructure)
I think there are some aspects in Civ that have been stretched too long. Back in the days (of the 90's) when I started playing Civ, the only things that made the transition between turns were the operations of units. Today, that's an arcaic rest of the past game mechanics. Now it's a "one more turn" of a bloated system.
Tactical maps a'la Humankind would make unit operations make sense, but wouldn't really work outside SP games. I've suggested Firaxis could do more about Eras, but it's been a lot of Ad hoc from their side and I'm not sure they'd be using Ockham's razor to make a great Civ 7.
 
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