Combat Odds Woes

[Jsyudo]

I am annoyed. I played at "Noble" difficulty.

My neighbours are all annoyed at me 'cos of religious differences.
They want to kill me but I thought I should strike first. So I trained 3 units of swordmen and 2 units of axemen and went over. The malinese had a bunch of archers as their special units, coupled with several defence bonuses. My combat odds were a whopping 6.0 vs 12.9 (est). How am I supposed to win?!

And how do CIV 4 calculate the combat odds? Is it the whole city's unit vs one unit of my swordmen? I don't see how 3 units of swordmen + 2 units of axemen couldn't beat 3 units of archers?

In any case, how do I win? Even if I stood at the most strategic spot, and gave my swordmen promos of 20% forest and jungle defence, the odds only edged up slightly. Does the combat odds mean I got to sacrifice my troops just to gain that city? I don't really want to pillage their resources cos I don't want a lousy city.

Btw, this is AD100. We haven't discovered construction yet. so no seige weapons.

And I can't convert them to my religion either cos we had no open borders and thus no spreading of religion. They cancel our open borders deals.

Any help? GREATLY APPRECIATED!

 

[snepp]

Combats strengths are displayed as your unit vs the best defender.

Defensive upgrades won't do you any good when you're attacking. The City Raider line of promotions is what you want when attacking cities.

If they're getting a defensive bonus from the city and you don't have siege weapons yet, then it's time to either research them, or fight another day.

 

[Jsyudo]

Combats strengths are displayed as your unit vs the best defender.

Defensive upgrades won't do you any good when you're attacking. The City Raider line of promotions is what you want when attacking cities.

If they're getting a defensive bonus from the city and you don't have siege weapons yet, then it's time to either research them, or fight another day.

I see. I got the idea that if my units stood there and I was attacked, having a unit of swordmen with 20% defensive in jungle/forest would mean they would defend ---> not right?
I should promote all troops to City Raider? My other 2 units were City Raider 2.

All cities will have defensive bonuses once they have some culture. Does that mean that war in civ 4 shouldn't be fought earlier than discovery of construction?But it doesn't make sense that way?

 

[Sirp]

The combat odds will involve the unit you chose to attack vs their best defender. (But they can't combine defenders in a single battle).

All the bonuses they get to arrive at their odds amount will be displayed when you press 'alt'.

The tile you stand on to attack from doesn't affect your combat chances, unless you are attacking from a ship or across a river (either of which gives you a penalty).

If you are fighting archers who are defending in a city you don't want any axemen at all, since axemen are weaker than swordsmen and don't get the +10% when attacking cities advantage. Axemen have an advantage against melee units, so you want them if your enemy has spearmen or swordsmen deployed.

You definitely want barracks and the 'City Raider upgrade' for your attacking units.

It's possible to overcome a 6-to-12 odds disadvantage to take a city, but at a hefty price: you would need to outnumber your enemy 3-to-1 or 4-to-1. In most cases you can get better odds than this though by good unit selection, and getting veteran city raider units.

-Sirp.

 

[snepp]

I see. I got the idea that if my units stood there and I was attacked, having a unit of swordmen with 20% defensive in jungle/forest would mean they would defend ---> not right?
I should promote all troops to City Raider?

Sorry, I misunderstood your post. I thought you were giving the forest/jungle defense bonus to a unit with the intention of having a stronger attack. So no, don't give all units city raider, mixing things up is good and you've got the right idea. Having a unit with defensive upgrades in your stack is a good idea for dealing with counter-attacks.

Does that mean that war in civ 4 shouldn't be fought earlier than discovery of construction?

If I'm going to fight an early war, I like it to be really early, before cities have the chance to build walls, or build up a significant cultural defense. Once those city defenses are up you could end up wasting alot of units trying to take a city down.

 

[warpus]

I see. I got the idea that if my units stood there and I was attacked, having a unit of swordmen with 20% defensive in jungle/forest would mean they would defend ---> not right?
I should promote all troops to City Raider? My other 2 units were City Raider 2.

All cities will have defensive bonuses once they have some culture. Does that mean that war in civ 4 shouldn't be fought earlier than discovery of construction?But it doesn't make sense that way?

i usually have to build up quite a large army to be able to wage war, before i can build siege weapons. i usually make sure that i have at least 2x or even 3x as many units as the defenders, and yes, city raider is important to have.

 

[RadagastdeBrun]

You should also note that your chances are even worse than they appear, because the enemy first strikes don't appear in the odds.

 

[widdowmaker]

I see. I got the idea that if my units stood there and I was attacked, having a unit of swordmen with 20% defensive in jungle/forest would mean they would defend ---> not right?
I should promote all troops to City Raider? My other 2 units were City Raider 2.

All cities will have defensive bonuses once they have some culture. Does that mean that war in civ 4 shouldn't be fought earlier than discovery of construction?But it doesn't make sense that way?

not nessacarily. it simply means you cant use 5 axemen to take a city that is size 6 with walls 3 archers and a 5 turn fortify defense bonus.

you can however use 5 axmen to take a size1-2 city with a bonus of less than 1-2 turns fort bonus that has 1-2 archers.


this is not civ 3. you cant just make 50 kinights and stomp the enemy. you have to make units, plan their promotions, plan their jobs, have specific goals, and then go for those goals.


war is now a thinking game. from what ive seen here, msot peopel liek to make stacks of catapuls and use them like they used knights in civ 3. zerg the enemy. collateral damage will win. i prefer to use 5 guys, maybe 2 catapults 2 offense guys and 1 defense guy. defense guy is a medic with 20% hill 20% forest + jungle offense guys are anti-archer city raider combat 1 and anti-infantry city raider combat 1. catapults i dont promote till right before the attack, and i promote what i need at that city.

just fortify outside, and bombard until bonus is gone, then pick an offensive unit, send them in. have renforcments on the way.


gone are the days of


50 knights. 10 citys. zerg zerg zerg.

 

[Jsyudo]

Thanks guys! Although I play at Noble but I suck at war. I mainly go for cultural, diplomatic and Spaceship vs.

The tips here really helps. Looks like sacrifices are really essential for this religious war. I hope I will take those damn infidels down soon with the tips here. Looks like I shouldn't build axemen just cos they were cheaper either...

 

[warpus]

Thanks guys! Although I play at Noble but I suck at war. I mainly go for cultural, diplomatic and Spaceship vs.

The tips here really helps. Looks like sacrifices are really essential for this religious war. I hope I will take those damn infidels down soon with the tips here. Looks like I shouldn't build axemen just cos they were cheaper either...

axemen are very good against melee units, so they do have a place. i use them quite frequently in the early game, actually.

 

[shackleton]

From what you described it sounds like you're not bombarding the enemy defences. But in case it's something else, I'll just run through what I do to take a city.

I take 2 catapults
I take no less swordsmen than there are defenders in the city, all trained as much as possible with city attack.
I take a couple of other units (usually an axemen and a spearmen trained with healing) to defend the stack a bit.

Move them up next to the city, ideally in a spot with some good defensive cover (hills or forest) and certainly *not* with a river between your square and the city square

Click on the catapults. There's a bullseye icon in the actions window at the bottom. Click it. It lowers the enemies defences. Do the same with the next catapult. Repeat until defences have been reduced to zero.

Click a swordsmen and hold the right mouse button over the city to look at the odds. Often the odds will now be in your favour and you can attack without sacrificing any catapults, but sometimes this isn't the case if the enemy has strong defensive units or the city is built on the hill.

If your swordsmen don't have good odds, attack with the catapults first. They will cause collateral damage to the units, making them easier to defeat for the other units, though it's likely that you'll lose the catapults. Then follow up with the swordsmen.

The randomness of battle may mean you lose a unit or two in the attack. Don't worry, you can usually tidy up the last remnants of the enemy defence with your axemen/spearman/whatever other units you have lying around.

The key is 1) artillery 2) attack with enough troops for the job.