JujuLautre
Deity
To add to all what was said, do not forget that combat promotions do a better job for the attacker than for the defender. They are, in a sense, the only multiplicative promotion, but only when attacking 
Combat promotion line rocks!
- Thread starter Grey Fox
- Start date
fail, what does trebuchet do ? CR always have higher chance than Combat regardless of culture defense or the strenght of the defenders. In the end, that what CR specialize , to raid city
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 3,663
2 promos:
(1 + 20%) / ( 1 + B ) = 1 / ( 1 + B - 45% )
1.2 / (1+B) = 1 / ( .55 + B )
1.2 ( .55 + B ) = 1 * (1+B)
.66 + 1.2B = 1 + B
.2B = .34
B = 1.7 = 170%
Careful!
(1 + 30%) / ( 1 + B ) = 1 / ( 1 + B - 75% )
1.3 / (1+B) = 1 / ( .25 + B )
1.3 ( .25 + B ) = 1 * (1+B)
.325 + 1.3B = 1 + B
.3B = .675
B = 2.25 = 225%
A CGIII longbow in the 60% city on a hill is...
85% Tile defense (60% + 25%)
100% City defense
25% hill defense
For 210%... if the longbow is unfortified. If that longbow has been fortified for 4 or more turns (in the world builder, you can simulate 4 turns of fortification by giving the longbow Guerilla I), the odds cross the line (defender is at 230% after 4 turns or 235% after 5) and the combat promotion line gives the attacker slightly better odds than city raider.
(1 + 20%) / ( 1 + B ) = 1 / ( 1 + B - 45% )
1.2 / (1+B) = 1 / ( .55 + B )
1.2 ( .55 + B ) = 1 * (1+B)
.66 + 1.2B = 1 + B
.2B = .34
B = 1.7 = 170%
Careful!
(1 + 30%) / ( 1 + B ) = 1 / ( 1 + B - 75% )
1.3 / (1+B) = 1 / ( .25 + B )
1.3 ( .25 + B ) = 1 * (1+B)
.325 + 1.3B = 1 + B
.3B = .675
B = 2.25 = 225%
A CGIII longbow in the 60% city on a hill is...
85% Tile defense (60% + 25%)
100% City defense
25% hill defense
For 210%... if the longbow is unfortified. If that longbow has been fortified for 4 or more turns (in the world builder, you can simulate 4 turns of fortification by giving the longbow Guerilla I), the odds cross the line (defender is at 230% after 4 turns or 235% after 5) and the combat promotion line gives the attacker slightly better odds than city raider.
All the maths I've seen here asume we know how cr anc combat multipliers are applied. Can somebody explain this to me?
I always thought that if I had a unit with 10str, having +20% would bring it to 12, and having +10% would be 11. So I always chose CR for attacking.
But it seems the bonus is applied different, how's that?
I always thought that if I had a unit with 10str, having +20% would bring it to 12, and having +10% would be 11. So I always chose CR for attacking.
But it seems the bonus is applied different, how's that?
hoLLo
Chieftain
For gunpowder units I have usually half drill, half combat. The drill guys are the first out of the gates and I pray the first strikes cause some decent amount of damage, then the combat guys clean it up and get the next promotions. That way when I reinforce my army with new units, they almost always are replacing drill promo's because the combat guys don't die as often This is not because they are superior just because I choose to let them attack when the odds are in their favour already. I find using first strikes as a can opener is effective, but I'm not a math guy and I can barely understand half of what was written above so I'm not going to claim this the most efficient. Btw this is all related to conquest, not defence.
ShannonCT said:
I'm being a pedant here, but what he said isn't untrue. He said it reduces by 10%, which CR1 does to a 100% defense unit. It's just that combat 1 is a 10% increase to the attacker, the equivalent to the defender being a decrease of ~9% (1 - 1/1.1) at 100% defensive bonuses. Hence the turning point of 120% like you said.
fail, what does trebuchet do ? CR always have higher chance than Combat regardless of culture defense or the strenght of the defenders. In the end, that what CR specialize , to raid city
Uhm, this entire thread has pretty much been a discussion on how what you just said is what appears should happen but is actually done differently. CR most definitely does not always have a higher chance when attacking cities as many people have thoroughly explained.
As far as I know, when attacking, your combat promotions modify your base strength, then the other types of multipliers come into play after that. Those second types of bonuses cancel each other out. For instance, a spearman with C1 attacking a horse archer with no promotions you see in-game as 4.4 vs 3.0. I'm fairly sure it goes:
4.0 vs 6.0
4.4 vs 6.0 after the spearman's 10% combat 1 (first phase, attacker strength)
4.4 vs 3.0 spearman's 100% bonus against mounted (second phase, defender strength) - bonus in attacker's favour so it reduces the defender's strength
The crucial thing is that only the attacker's combat promotions get multiplied against his base strength. If the horse archer had combat 3 then:
4.0 vs 6.0
4.4 vs 6.0 spearman's 10% combat 1
4.4 vs 3.53 spearman's mounted 100% - 30% from defender's combat = 70% attacker's favour. 6 / 1.7 = ~3.53
It's strange because if the horse archer attacks instead:
6.0 vs 4.0
7.8 vs 4.0 HA's 30% from combat 1, 2 and 3
7.8 vs 8.4 spearman's mounted 100% + 10% from combat = 110% defender's favour. 4 * 2.1 = 8.4
So the HA gets better odds when attacking a spearman than when being attacked, because of the way combat promotions are applied. The same things goes on with city raider promos. If a defender has something crazy like 200% defense, then an attacker's CR1 promo will make that 180% defense, whereas combat 1 would add to his own base strength and give him better odds.
What I'm not sure of is how defenders are chosen. It's been alluded to, so does anyone mind giving a quick explanation?
killmeplease
Mk Z on Steam
I've made a spreadsheet with all the calculations (XLS)
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?id=1348419&da=y
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/view.php?id=1348419&da=y
Thanks for the explanation Lieu. I've been playing civ quite a lot, and always thought it would add the modifiers to each units strength, be it the attacker or defender. Seems it works very different, don't really understand why.
Doens't make much sense actually. The example you made of the spearman and horse archer proves this, since none of them as any bonus on beeing attacker or defender, and the odds change drastically depending on which of them attacks.
Doens't make much sense actually. The example you made of the spearman and horse archer proves this, since none of them as any bonus on beeing attacker or defender, and the odds change drastically depending on which of them attacks.
killmeplease
Mk Z on Steam
ps don't forget that CR3 gives +10% vs gunpowder as well
Dirk1302
Deity
Wow lots of calculations here. Combat is of course a good line of promos. If you have cavs and the ais have muskets and maybe grens it seems criminal though not to give the cavs pinch. I think the OP is too focused on the situation where a unit reaches c4 or 5. The problem is that some units won't reach that level since they die underway while they would have survived if they had gotten the specific promotion they needed at that time.
Rifles are typically city defenders, a few in a stack is nice but i prefer mounted units there which are better in open field. So i'm usually not in a situation where a i have loads of cgIII rifles in a stack. In the typical case that you go with a slow siege stack without mounted units i agree, combat is the best line but after c2 i would 100% give formation to units first since you just know that 90% of the attacks on your stacks will be mounted attacks. cr promos on other units than siege are imo very bad, exception would be cr on swordsman in the cat age, often this promo will save you a few cats. Maybe also maces with trebs but i don't have experience with this stack, probably just let the trebs do the attacking.
Rifles are typically city defenders, a few in a stack is nice but i prefer mounted units there which are better in open field. So i'm usually not in a situation where a i have loads of cgIII rifles in a stack. In the typical case that you go with a slow siege stack without mounted units i agree, combat is the best line but after c2 i would 100% give formation to units first since you just know that 90% of the attacks on your stacks will be mounted attacks. cr promos on other units than siege are imo very bad, exception would be cr on swordsman in the cat age, often this promo will save you a few cats. Maybe also maces with trebs but i don't have experience with this stack, probably just let the trebs do the attacking.
Is it really that uncommon for other high level players to use late game CR and D?
I'm a huge fan of fast war for the late game, running the tanks/fighters/paras trifecta is my preferred late game war build. As such for a long time the top stack defender in a city is going to be one of the few ATs the AI builds. CRIII giving a bonus vs gunpowder, I find I have a better survival rate with a few CRIII can openers and mop up with D tanks; and roll on to the next city sooner as the D tanks either have left over promos or have taken no damage.
Granted most units are simply unpromoted until I know what, exactly, I need, but I don't find C tanks anywhere near as good a CR/D mixes.
I'm a huge fan of fast war for the late game, running the tanks/fighters/paras trifecta is my preferred late game war build. As such for a long time the top stack defender in a city is going to be one of the few ATs the AI builds. CRIII giving a bonus vs gunpowder, I find I have a better survival rate with a few CRIII can openers and mop up with D tanks; and roll on to the next city sooner as the D tanks either have left over promos or have taken no damage.
Granted most units are simply unpromoted until I know what, exactly, I need, but I don't find C tanks anywhere near as good a CR/D mixes.
Dirk1302
Deity
What is trifecta? I use cr on siege, MA in the late game. I may use it on tanks if i don't have enough fighters/bombers/MA to weaken defenders enough. Most of the time the siege/air units will have been devastating though in that case i prefer combat/pinch. I find that stack defense is often more of an issue than the actual taking of cities in the modern game.
I agree with this especially the part in bold. (Though I prefer combat II over pinch)
And people keep mentioning siege in the City Raider discussion. Well duh, you can't take Combat with them!
- So yeah City Raider is the best for siege. Though I like some Barrage to weaken large stacks, and sometimes on the first few throwaway on a city. Drill + Shock can be nice on a lvl 3 Catapult vs Melee in the field. Especially for Korea I guess.
Dirk1302
Deity
Tanks still meet gunpowder units a lot but these are not the most dangerous units so there's an argument for c2 on tanks. Different for cavs though i alternate between c2 (longbows, future formation) and pinch (muskets, grens). If the ai has rifles i give almost every cav pinch so my cavs are at least competitive in open field.It's hard to see pinch out of scope on cavs before cavs go out of scope themselves or become choppers where pinch is also ok. Sometimes you just have to give a cav shock to give him at least a chance against a pike, maybe i should use double flank in those cases or indeed take my chances with c2, don't know really. Shock is pretty useless later.
Yes, I specialize on the individual level at times. Like in your examples, but I do prefer to take combat as much as possible.
Double flank is ok on about 25-50% of my mounted units. More earlier game, and more later as Cavalry start to become obsolete but you can still use them. They are even decent vs Infantry even without siege if you got enough espionage and enough units and speed is really crucial (just prepare to take the losses like a man). With Knights you usually want strength, because they have bad innate flanking and comes at a time where they can be at a real strength advantage and you want to push that further.
Though mixed in with your riflemen and cannon, they stand a better chance versus the Infantry. And can have a higher percentage of Combat.
Another reason to take combat II on mounted is because if you run out of for example anti-mounted in your stack, your horses can sometimes become the defender against enemy horse attacks! That's also a motivator for taking Formation on your mounted. Though Combat III isn't much worse and has more use.
For every specialized promotion you take you lose the opportunity to make this unit a truly great one. Blitzing Cavalry (or Helicopters) can help a lot if you use together with siege or air. March is nice to have, and probably a lot more useful overall than pinch.
Now to Tanks, yeah these I am more liberal with the use of City Raider because that can be necessary. If the opponent are ahead of you tech-wise though or suddenly becomes, that can be unwise.
Double flank is ok on about 25-50% of my mounted units. More earlier game, and more later as Cavalry start to become obsolete but you can still use them. They are even decent vs Infantry even without siege if you got enough espionage and enough units and speed is really crucial (just prepare to take the losses like a man). With Knights you usually want strength, because they have bad innate flanking and comes at a time where they can be at a real strength advantage and you want to push that further.
Though mixed in with your riflemen and cannon, they stand a better chance versus the Infantry. And can have a higher percentage of Combat.
Another reason to take combat II on mounted is because if you run out of for example anti-mounted in your stack, your horses can sometimes become the defender against enemy horse attacks! That's also a motivator for taking Formation on your mounted. Though Combat III isn't much worse and has more use.
For every specialized promotion you take you lose the opportunity to make this unit a truly great one. Blitzing Cavalry (or Helicopters) can help a lot if you use together with siege or air. March is nice to have, and probably a lot more useful overall than pinch.
Now to Tanks, yeah these I am more liberal with the use of City Raider because that can be necessary. If the opponent are ahead of you tech-wise though or suddenly becomes, that can be unwise.
Dirk1302
Deity
I think we basically agree then i often choose combat too when i really need to promote a unit but there's no urgent need to choose a special promotion. Most important exceptions are probably pinch on cavs and CG or guerilla on rifles in cities. I tend to defend cities very lightly so i like to get as much defense on these units as possible.
I need to try out flanking more. I don't fight too often with cavs against infantry but double flank is obviously great in that case.
I don't tend to fight with heavily promoted units, most of them will typically be in the 5-15 range. I tend to have lots of them when i begin a war. As for formation against c3, the ai often comes with c3 mounted, our c3 is 50%, formation gets us a nice edge. It's open field and defending the stack (defense) is often harder than taking the cities. I think you just have to mix it up in the end, take 9 lvl3 cavs, 3 with c3, 3 with c2 pinch and 3 with c2 formation would feel right to me most of the time. Clearly strongest on defense, on attack it depends, you can start with the c3 units, later switch to the units that suit the remaining defenders best.
I need to try out flanking more. I don't fight too often with cavs against infantry but double flank is obviously great in that case.
I don't tend to fight with heavily promoted units, most of them will typically be in the 5-15 range. I tend to have lots of them when i begin a war. As for formation against c3, the ai often comes with c3 mounted, our c3 is 50%, formation gets us a nice edge. It's open field and defending the stack (defense) is often harder than taking the cities. I think you just have to mix it up in the end, take 9 lvl3 cavs, 3 with c3, 3 with c2 pinch and 3 with c2 formation would feel right to me most of the time. Clearly strongest on defense, on attack it depends, you can start with the c3 units, later switch to the units that suit the remaining defenders best.
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
I guess you guys will think I'm crazy for giving tanks flanking and drill promotions 
Drill makes sense. Since they are a strong unit often fighting weaker (at least outside cities).
But since they are strong, Combat boosts them a lot too (consider combat 1 is +2.8 str on a full hp tank). But drill can probably give them that edge they need to continue blitzing (since they will have more HP after battle most likely).
But since they are strong, Combat boosts them a lot too (consider combat 1 is +2.8 str on a full hp tank). But drill can probably give them that edge they need to continue blitzing (since they will have more HP after battle most likely).
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
The reason I give them flanking is that they actually do withdraw if they don't win. Sometimes I'll have a CR1/flanking2 or CR2/flanking2 (if a lot of warring happened) because they took away my tank collateral damage! 
So the damage and withdraw works for me The Flank2/drill2 units I use are specifically for simulating collateral damage. I know it's way inefficient, but I enjoy it .
I also normally give a lot of my infantry/paratroopers guerrilla III or woodsman III as these promotions generally get a lot of other bonuses besides just defense/attack/movement in hills/forest/jungle. Ever had a gunpowder unit withdraw from battle? It's pretty cool.
So the damage and withdraw works for me The Flank2/drill2 units I use are specifically for simulating collateral damage. I know it's way inefficient, but I enjoy it .I also normally give a lot of my infantry/paratroopers guerrilla III or woodsman III as these promotions generally get a lot of other bonuses besides just defense/attack/movement in hills/forest/jungle. Ever had a gunpowder unit withdraw from battle? It's pretty cool.
Guerilla III sure is nice. So is Woodsman III. Especially for those paratroopers who usually end up behind enemy lines.
Celts can really specialize on Guerrilla III and Monty can make quite a few Woodsman III healers. The two first strikes and offense bonus is quite nice. Not to mention the double movement for the II's on both. Guerrilla is especially nice once you get to Riflemen/Infantry as you point out and if the enemy has cities on hills. And if you are traveling through hill terrain your stack can feel pretty safe.
Get some Great Generals attached to your guerrilla III units and you can make 80% withdrawal units, pretty sweet - though with the Celts (especially Boudica) I prefer to settle the generals.
Celts can really specialize on Guerrilla III and Monty can make quite a few Woodsman III healers. The two first strikes and offense bonus is quite nice. Not to mention the double movement for the II's on both. Guerrilla is especially nice once you get to Riflemen/Infantry as you point out and if the enemy has cities on hills. And if you are traveling through hill terrain your stack can feel pretty safe.
Get some Great Generals attached to your guerrilla III units and you can make 80% withdrawal units, pretty sweet
- though with the Celts (especially Boudica) I prefer to settle the generals.
