[RD] Comey's "A Higher Loyalty: Truth, Lies, and Leadership"

[rah]

Even that is too much information.

 

[metalhead]

no, and oh God no. If this is the perception of pleading the fifth you truly need to join us in helping shatter this myth. Pleading the fifth is probably one of the first things you should consider doing whenever being interrogated by the police or any law enforcement. If you talk to any defense attorney, they will say that you probably don't want to say anything, likely ever. Being a defendant that takes the stand is a tactic, but goodness no, it's not the go to tactic. The go-to tactic is pleading the fifth.

Oh no, no, no! The first thing you should do when law enforcement interrogates you is say, "I want to speak to a lawyer." Utter nothing other than that sentence until you have a lawyer sitting next to you. And never, ever, EVER give law enforcement a reason for not answering a question. Just refuse to answer.

 

[El_Machinae]

We aren't disagreeing. We are just talking about different stages of the investigation. It should never be a surprise if an accused pleads the Fifth, it is basically going to be the advice of any attorney until they can figure out a specific strategy for why you should talk. Requesting an attorney, and refusing to speak without an attorney present, is merely a variant of exercising your 5th Amendment right.

We know that Trump and Cohen are going to be guilty of various offenses. But making hay out of their Fifth Amendment pleading is a bad move, it's an expected move, and everybody needs to know that it's probably the wisest move for anybody to take.

 

[Takhisis]

The good news is that Trump will be in charge when the economy imploded again, You just know that Agriculture and Manufacturing are going to get it good and hard as Trump tries to bring back coal and steel jobs
Trump tax cut bill is going to be a wonderful gift when its backloaded tax increases happen

The bad news, of course, is that the US economy will implode again, and if the alternative is to see China or Russia take over #1 then I have to say hell no to this.

The even better tactic is "I don't know, and I am not interested in continuing this conversation."

I'm not sure whether Señor Trump is that good a liar.

 

[Lexicus]

We know that Trump and Cohen are going to be guilty of various offenses. But making hay out of their Fifth Amendment pleading is a bad move, it's an expected move, and everybody needs to know that it's probably the wisest move for anybody to take.

I don't think there's much wrong with pointing out their rich, creamy hypocrisy on the matter though

 

[metalhead]

We aren't disagreeing. We are just talking about different stages of the investigation. It should never be a surprise if an accused pleads the Fifth, it is basically going to be the advice of any attorney until they can figure out a specific strategy for why you should talk. Requesting an attorney, and refusing to speak without an attorney present, is merely a variant of exercising your 5th Amendment right.

We know that Trump and Cohen are going to be guilty of various offenses. But making hay out of their Fifth Amendment pleading is a bad move, it's an expected move, and everybody needs to know that it's probably the wisest move for anybody to take.

I don't think there's much wrong with pointing out their rich, creamy hypocrisy on the matter though

Yes, exactly this. As a legal matter a judge is going to be very unhappy if a lawyer tried to make something of the accused pleading the 5th. But juries will connect those dots on their own.

In the investigative stage it only ever makes sense to plead the 5th if you are being compelled by subpoena to testify or answer questions, and then it only makes sense if you are actually in danger of placing yourself in legal jeopardy with your answers - precisely because despite the legal construct whereby you aren't supposed to infer actual misconduct by someone asserting the privilege, everyone is going to infer it anyways.

I feel like there is a word to describe this situation. Probably a German word.

 

[Takhisis]

I feel like there is a word to describe this situation. Probably a German word.

SUMMON THE METATRON

 

[El_Machinae]

I don't think there's much wrong with pointing out their rich, creamy hypocrisy on the matter though

Absolutely. But while it's okay to mock, there's no point crowing about it. Cohen basically has to plead the fifth in order to delay his civil case and delay deposition. We don't want people to think it's anything other than what any smart person would do. Or at least what their lawyer would demand. The fact that it makes Trump look dumb is 'meh'. He often dumb. No one cares.

 

[metalhead]

There is no evidence that either Michael Cohen or his lawyer are a smart person. A smart person would realize they're dead to rights and cut a deal.

 

[Sommerswerd]

There is no evidence that either Michael Cohen or his lawyer are a smart person. A smart person would realize they're dead to rights and cut a deal.

Don't forget that Cohen is basically practicing concierge law with essentially one client... Trump, and then the occasional one-off case/client that is a friend of Trump, that Trump refers to him.

With Trump as his sole source of business... and undoubtedly paying him handsomely... he is staring down the barrel of the effective end of his livelihood if he flips on Trump. Whereas if he figures out some way to avoid squealing, he may be thinking he can go on being Trump's "fixer" for the rest of his career. Maybe he's counting on Trump pardoning him as long as he stays in the good graces.

If he ultimately decides to throw Trump under the bus, I guess there's always the book/movie deal to angle for.

 

[metalhead]

He's going to lose his law license regardless of what happens, and Trump is already trying to distance himself from Cohen. Cohen would have to be extraordinarily stupid (which, possible) to think there is any professional future left for him, with Trump or anyone else, other than writing a tell-all which he can do in the comfort of his own ankle bracelet.

The funniest thing here is that the tell-all becomes 1000x more interesting and explosive if a court rules that none of Trump and Cohen's communications are protected by attorney-client privilege, because then Cohen can write about whatever he wants. If I'm him, I'm telling my attorneys not to press that point too hard, that information is worth way more if I'm allowed to disclose it.

 

[El_Machinae]

There is no evidence that either Michael Cohen or his lawyer are a smart person. A smart person would realize they're dead to rights and cut a deal.

Not in the timeline of this case, because he has an ongoing civil case as well. He needs to plead the fifth in order to delay the civil case. You can always 'undo' remaining silent. But you cannot always undo refusing to answer a question at a deposition.

We know Cohen has made mistakes. We also suspect strongly that he's unethical. But I just don't like the idea of people crowing about this. Trump's former statements on exercising fifth amendment rights were stupid, and they were made to a confused crowd, and he got cheered for them. We need to reverse this damage all the way, where people instantly recognize his former statements as the stupid ones, and where someone invoking their fifth amendment right is merely exercising common sense.

Imagine it was Trump mocking someone for 'wasting money' by hiring a cab because they realized they were too drunk to drive. "How stupid do you have to be to hire a cab when you're too drunk?" he says "How stupid is that? What a waste of money!".

And then later we find out that his attorney got too drunk at a party and hired a cab.

We'd not mock the attorney's hypocrisy. Hiring a cab when you're drunk is smart. It was the original statement that was stupid.

 

[El_Machinae]

I thought of another historical example. Do you remember how Trump bragged that not paying taxes made him smart? It horrified many people, but many other people liked it. We want to get to a world where pleading the fifth is viewed as the smart move. Basically in any scenario.

 

[Takhisis]

The funniest thing here is that the tell-all becomes 1000x more interesting and explosive if a court rules that none of Trump and Cohen's communications are protected by attorney-client privilege, because then Cohen can write about whatever he wants. If I'm him, I'm telling my attorneys not to press that point too hard, that information is worth way more if I'm allowed to disclose it.

Are you saying that Cohen could write his own book? (working title: WORKING FOR THE DONALD™)