Discussion in 'Civ2 - Scenario Creation' started by Blake00, Jun 14, 2019.
You'd also get 5 or 6 new terrain types with ToTPP.
Plus I think any terrain type, old or new, can be made to use a 16-tile group in Terrain2 -- it's not limited to the three types that have historically appeared there.
And there would be an extra 46 unit slots...
Thanks! lol yeah I know I've thought about this myself too...
I have nothing against ToT as I REALLY enjoyed playing its enhanced scifi & fantasy scenarios a year or so ago (it has its flaws but ToTPP fixes most of them and I think it's really underrated) and yeah it would give me more colours, more terrain variety leading to more city building types, animating terrain objects which could be used for cool burning flames, animating units (or alternatively I think I saw somewhere that modders can do higher resolution 2D units in ToT these days using some trick??), more unit slots allowing for way more super & small building garrison unit pieces... the list goes on lol.
It's more that I just fell into MGE modding as it's what I had experience in, my old Star Wars Civ2 Scenario was MGE (as I probably started it in late 90s before ToT even came out haha), Metro's old Heroes of Might & Magic Civ2 Scenario was MGE was we decided to stick with that (plus Metro worked out some bugs/issues that would happen if we did it in ToT), Wonx's C&C Civ2 Scenario was MGE so I stuck with that. So when the time came for me to do this RA2 scenario, the first one I'm starting from scratch and even had a choice on I just went with MGE as it's what I know now so well lol! I REALLY enjoyed pushing it past its supposed limits with @Metro Polis on the HoMM2 mod so now I find it kind of addictive just to try and get way more out of it than people expect. Outside of the core Civ fan & modding community its safe to say way more people have a copy of or even know of MGE's existence versus ToT. Plus those points on why ToT is better above would also mean a lot of extra work and time haha, I really cbf working out animating units etc and having to draw heaps more buildings and units etc, I kind of want this project to be over as soon as possible as it shouldn't have even happened lol.
My original plan was to release my 23yr old Star Wars mod, do the HoMM2 mod with Metro and then be done with Civ2 modding as my main focus was doing this big classic Civ games in HD video series for youtube where I mostly covered other peoples mods. For the video series I started hunting for other peoples C&C, MOO, MoM, RA, HoMM related mods (as I really love crossovers with those games) to make cool videos only to find what's out there is unfinished and/or not so great, resulting in that dangerous thought entering my head of "I bet I could do a better job of this" hahahaha. So here I am now NOT working on my videos and juggling 4 different scenario/mods haha.. hell its 5 if we count my ToT Graphics for Civ2MGE mod project too arrrgh haha.
However the potential 6th project I've been mulling over for months, a enhanced remastered version of the good old Master of Magic Jnr scenario in Civ2 Fantastic Worlds would indeed finally bring me over to ToT as I really want to recreate the dual worlds of Arcanus and Myrror from MoM and only ToT can do that. However that requires a guru of that difficult MGE to ToT scenario conversion program and no one has come forward to help me so maybe that'll keep me away from taking on this project haha.
Either way I need to get these projects done ASAP and the creative side of my brain needs to STFU so I can get back to doing my video series lol.
Can you explain this more please? Is it possible to have a 4th 16 title terrain? If so, any idea how to make it work?
I'm a bit more interested in the extra 46 unit slots.
Animating custom terrain resources is possible, I think, but I'm not aware of any mods or scenarios that have actually attempted it. Same with custom animated units: it's possible with ToT, I think, but all the ToT scenarios I've seen just used 2D units like FW, MGE, etc. (If you're ambitious, you can use static sprites to customize unit colors by tribe, without getting into animation.) The units aren't really "higher resolution", just a little larger (well, taller): 64x64 instead of 64x48. I think the true color support makes the most difference.
Sure, makes sense. I actually feel the same about ToT though -- it's still fun to try and get more out of it than people expect.
That's probably true, and honestly if you want to play the traditional base game, using MGE with FoxAhead's CIV2UIA is actually nicer than ToT (IMHO) because the default graphics in ToT are so lousy. But once you start getting into mods... I think the more someone's interested in playing Civ2 mods, the more likely it is that they've made the jump to ToT.
Well, yeah, more options can mean more work -- but just to be clear, it doesn't have to. You don't need to use animated units, or extra terrain types, or more unit slots -- you could keep your scope the same and just use more colors! But could you hold yourself back?
My main point is that going from MGE to ToT isn't at all like making the jump to Civ3 or Civ4. It's basically the same game you know well, just with more options and flexibility, and you can ignore most of that if you wish.
Well, it would be great to see you finish and release some of those projects but then it would be great to see you stick around and keep producing more Civ2 content!
If you posted the scenario that you want converted in the Modified Scenarios Workshop thread, I think someone would probably step up to help you. (Or did you try that already?) Many of the recent conversions have been done by gapetit, so you could even try asking him directly, but I think there are still a couple others around who know how the conversion process works. I've never done it myself, unfortunately.
Yes, definitely possible. This is the patch named "Terrain overlays" in the TOTPP launcher, and I basically followed the steps outlined in the patch description that TNO put together. It's been awhile since I got this working, though, so I don't recall if I had any particular issues... nothing comes to mind at the moment. I didn't experiment with different tile heights, I just used 32 pixel images like Terrain2 has always supported.
Actually I meant 47, but I think it's even more than that. The base version of ToT supports 80 unit types, and TOTPP allows you to increase that all the way to 127. But it looks like there are only 62 unit types in the Rules.txt in my Civ2MGE folder, the last one being "Test Unit 8", is that correct? If that's the max, then going from MGE to ToT+ToTPP would be an increase of 65.
Death to all but MGE.
WOW! I did not know that no one had figured out how to do animating units and terrain in ToT!! Even @Catfish never did it?? That guy's the guru of all things ToT lol. I hadn't encountered custom animating units & terrain either but just figured that was because it wasn't done much.
I forgot to say that true colour also starts to expose my weaknesses as an artist lol. I seem to find it much harder to make things look good or correct a graphical glitch or problem when its true colour. When it's just 256 it's so easy to do pixel art haha. Who would have thought the limitations would make it easier but for me it just does lol.
Thank you and damn you lol!!! I didn't know about there, so I went and posted there and @gapetit had the Master of Magic Jr scenario fully converted and working in ToT within 24hours lmao! So it looks like you'll get your wish and I'm gonna be trapped in Civ2 modding for another 6months LMAO.
To think that I asked about this in Nov 2018 in this thread and didn't get any help when it turned out all I had to do was go to that special thread and ask lol!
Watch out Metro you'll start a riot haha!
I made some animated ToT unit graphics by converting Civ 3 units and I think they are looking pretty well. You can see their animations as they are shown in the game in this thread: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/animated-units-for-civ-2-tot.411816/
As these units are still available for download, everybody could still test the quality of those units.
I also made an interesting ToT space scenario using two maps and simply animated ToT units. The thread at CFC can be found here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/new-scifi-game-for-civ2-tot.421505/
At present it´s not available to the public and with the closure of the SOC site, that hosted this scenario, nearly all screenshots in that thread are gone.
Most Civ 3 units could be converted to animated Civ 2 ToT units. Especially infantry units fit very well in the 64x64 box. Problematic are big ships as they must be sized down massively.
The problem with animated Civ 2 ToT units is different: The programming of Civ 2 ToT here unfortunately is really outdated and there was found no way to fix this with Lua: There are no defensive animations possible in Civ 2 ToT, meaning, per example the animated swordsman beats on another unit and that unit is not animated and stands still until one of both units falls down. The other problem is, that for the movement animations, that can be done in good quality, Civ 2 ToT is not able to deliver the proper different movement sounds - only a 'clack, clack' or one other sound file, what is somewhat silly to hear a foot marching infantry for a moving jet plane.
Oh wow! @Civinator delivers again! So yup, sure enough animating units in ToT was conquered. You and Catfish got together and did all sorts of cool work. Very impressive, especially that you can convert Civ3 animating units into ToT as a bonus. Reading your thread and seeing all those cool animating WW2 units is awesome.. makes me think of what I could create with the C&C2 and Red Alert 2 units as there are good extractors out there for the C&C 2.5D voxel units. However it's still too much work haha. Nice to fantasize about it though.
Ahhhh that's right, I forgot you showed me your space scenario and its animating units in our private convo ages ago. My apologies I never did get back to you in that chat as I switched my focus from mod hunting to mod making and forgot about it haha. So you've lost that scenario haven't you? your computer caught fire and the only online backup was at SOC which went down too. Really not fair that all your hard work is gone now mate! I think I even asked for the SOC web address in my last PM to you so I could put my investigator hat on and see what I could find in the archives, but I don't think you gave it to me however I've just done some searches and I'm guessing it was www.stormoverciv.com so I'll start with that and see what I can dig up. Of course even if I find the site its highly likely the downloads weren't backed up... but hey its worth a shot. I've rescued so much stuff from archives over the years. My retro gaming fan projects tribute website Blakes Sanctum is literally full of rescued projects I found on archive.org lol.
EDIT: I've done the searches and PM's you the results.. may as well stick them here for others too:
Okay so I’ve fed the http://stormoverciv.com address into the Internet Wayback machine at www.archive.org and sadly no intact backup can be found, just lots of redirects which at least gives me where it moved to.
The dot com site mostly tries to redirect me to http://stormoverciv.org , once again there’s no intact backup, just more redirects.
The dot org site mostly tries to redirect me to http://stormoverciv.net , once again there’s no intact backup, just more redirects.
The dot net site mostly tries to redirect me to http://ww17.stormoverciv.net, which is a dead end sadly.
However there are multiple other redirects from each of these addresses to a forum which has been partially backed up over different years. Was the forum the ACTUAL site and there never really was a regular website? If so that’s not great as archive.org doesn’t usually backup sub threads and post attachments. However I’ll still have a good look..
Both http://stormoverciv.com and http://stormoverciv.org both redirect you to http://stormoverciv.org/forums/ and the newest backup of that I can find is only 29/12/2010 sadly:
Sure enough when I tried to click on some of the sub forums it failed.
This is every single file they backup from the address.. definitely no scenarios there. Quite a lot of html though so maybe a few threads here and there remain.
Newer sites redirect to http://stormoverciv.net/forums/ and the newest backup I can find of that is 25/12/2013:
Once again I didn’t have much luck clicking on sub forums sadly. More files appear to be backed up though, there’s quite a lot of screenshot attachments (some of them look like ones I’ve seen you post elsewhere), no sign of attachments though.
Were all the lost scenarios there just attachments on posts or were they stored elsewhere? If its elsewhere then let me know where and I’ll dig there.
Blake00, thank you very much for all your 'digs' in the internet, but the modding stuff of the SOC site - including my Civ 2 ToT space scenario - is backed up very well. Lost are only most of those screenshots that were connected to the posts at that site, but these screenshots can be reproduced easily by using the backed up files.
There will come a day when I can have the time in continuing learning LUA and especially can provide the battlestar Galactica, Cylon, Starwars ships and so on to be real 'landcarriers', that can carry their fighters or Star trek ships to carry their space torpedoes in that landbased SciFi game, what at present for the AI is not possible for landunits in Civ 2.
From time to time I have a lot of fun with playing my 'Space Game'. It´s a really unique feeling, when the Kilrathi battle the Klingons and the Romulans could have problems with the Cylons, while the Lost Colonies send their Battlestar Galactica ships against the star destroyers of Emperor Palpatine and his empire, all based at two maps with random starting positions in those maps.
@Blake: Most scenarios actually have animated units because you can see some battle graphics. You simply didn't realize it because that was nothing special in MGE but a lot of work in TOT. I guess that and the non-blinking active unti was what scared me off most.
You can have them all animated, but it's simply not worth the effort.
This is not completly correct, as in the standard civ 2 combat animations, the combat is simply animated, not the units. May be when the killed unit is fading out, here one can speak of a very simple animation of an unit - and if it is worth to animate an unit or not, should be the decision of a civer who wants to create a really animated Civ 2 ToT unit. In MGE this cannot be done.
ahh my bad.. sorry for misunderstanding. Although I like I said above I found a LOT of picture attachments backed up so if you ever wanna go digging to save yourself having to take new ones then I think they may be there. I saw a whole bunch that looked like CCM shots.
Blake00, it´s quite nice to have these links in one post.
Figured I should probably post an update on how things are going with Red Alert 2 Siege of New York. Been very busy in real life lately.. plus as well as ALL the bloody projects I told you guys about above I've also been helping out the FreeCol Project (Opensource Colonization remake) on their public image and presentation (website, moddb page, forums, welcome info, modding info, HD pictures & video etc) as most people think their project is dead due to the remaining team (nearly all programmers) quieting working on the game for the last few years and not updating anything else haha. Also helping a wee bit on the game too (testing, modding, organising maps etc) but not much as my skill set (not a programmer or high res artist) limits how much I can help on that.
Anyway so I've been continue the long job of converting/downsizing/manipulating RA2 buildings into Civ2 terrain slots.
Started doing some of the 1x3 diagonal cell buildings.. these are really tough as I can't really replicate the height so I have to remove heaps of floors and details.
Original RA2 models:
Cutting out floors:
Downsizing to Civ2 resolutions:
Even at the above size they STILL don't fit in a 1x2 or 1x3.
I was facing having to squish and remove even more details which I REALLY didn't want to do as so much had already been lost! So I then decided to use the upper cell areas (as previously talked about upper areas in the cell above the diamond can be used but not lower areas. So I decided that I'd squish the diagonal building into 2 cells and then just stick another 1x1 cell sized building in the 3rd (allowing for even more unique 1x1 buildings in the game) and most importantly I changed my template to highlight these usable upper areas (in red) so I could see just how much I could squeeze the building into those areas.
This left one final problem where the non-usable area cut right into the top roofs of the buildings. I thought "what am I going to do.. every other downsizing option is unacceptable".. and then it dawned on me lol.. these damaged buildings are already full of blast holes so why not make big ones right where the unusable areas are. So as you can see I've drawn cracks and debris around the unusable areas. In-game this should create a nice illusion of 'just another blast hole'. These shots are still WIP as I've got to decide what 1x1 size building I want to put next to them in these 1x3s. Oh and add burning fire of course! Gotta have fires haha!
Why do 1x3 when its obvious the building is more of a 1x2 you may ask? well if I use the remaining cells (unused by my 4 super 3x3 cell buildings) in the Trees/Rivers/Hill/Mountains I've got a 1x1 and 2 diagonal slots of 1x3s. A Picture @Metro Polis kindly made for me illustrates this nicely.
I can ignore the cell in the middle of the 1x3 and just have 2 lots of 1x2 diagonal. However that middle cell is completely inaccessible and unusable unless you do a 1x3 so I'd be wasting 2 cells per the 4 special terrains.. wasting 8 lots of 1x1 cells in a scenario where I need to use EVERYTHING? I think not. So like I said above I'll just stick a 1x2 and a 1x1 building combo into the 1x3 and then just create lots of 1x3 formations in various parts of the map.
I've found that car parks go great into a full 1x3.. so I made some! If I do diagonal rivers across 2 squares I get the red car and white car combo.. if I use the full 1x3 combo then a nice limousine and green car join the little parking party haha. All cars are taken from the car parks in the original level of course. Those with a keen eye will notice I've also imported in the water fountains seen in the original map so you'll see them pop up here and there in the nice park & trees areas. Naturally in the final product I'll have that funny Monkey Burger place and a Petrol Station next to those car parks too. Disclaimer: All buildings in this shot are just unfinished WIP placeholders.
And finally I've also made my city wall faction variants for my city bases. I was quite proud of the ones I made for my C&C Tiberium Sun style remake of Wonx's scenario that I originally posted earlier in the thread here:
It worked well as C&C2 TS has cool laser and firestorm fences plus I was working from lower resolution originals so the conversion was less of a headache.
However with these new RA2 ones its harder work as the Allies & Soviets just have boring walls and the original buildings and walls are at a much higher resolution.
Meaning there's just so much more detail to lose and so much more work to get some of it back into the downsized Civ2 sprites. So I'm still not quite satisfied with the models but here's how they look so far walled and unwalled.
mmmm yummy burgers.. there's nothing better than visiting McBurger Kong.. unless of course the building's on fire and there's a full blown shoot out between US marines and Soviet paratroopers forces happening there haha.
In the original map Soviet paratroopers constantly drop ever 2mins next to these buildings and all hell ensues if you've garrisoned the nearbye buildings. So naturally the plan is to recruate that fun in this scenario. I'll have paratroopers dropping to the sound of sirens every 5 turns or so. If the garrisons fall then the allied player will have enemy paratroopers running around unchecked.
Garrisoned McBurger Kong and Petrol Station using destroyable unit slots (haven't decided whether I'll keep the flags yet):
Destroyed and burning McBurger Kong and Petrol Station using terrain slots:
After doing all these recent buildings I've started to realise just how bad my early buildings were.. they're so shrunken to fit in a standard Civ2 diamond cell that they've lost way too much detail, they also look ridiculous next to the larger super buildings due to them having way smaller/compacted windows and floors. Since making them I've worked out a number of tricks mentioned in previous posts such as using the upper cells areas above the diamond, adding blast damage to the top most corner (so I can cut it off and buy more vertical space haha), and also removing floors (and making them roughly 3-4 story instead of 10 lol). That allows me to go wider and use more horizontal space and naturally pack in way more detail.
Eg here's the old ones:
And here's the new ones:
The center damaged one still has to fit in a classic cell but its still an improvement over the old one due to me reducing/pancaking floors and removing the top area with blast damage. The one on the right is of course the garrisoned unit version and unit cells are much bigger than terrain cells so I'm able to leave the building tall with more floors, it is sooo much better than my old one lol. The left one will go in as background decoration in the 3x3 super building area where I'm also less size limited so have made it a match for the garrisoned version.
Here's the damaged one inserted next to a new 2x1 building of similar architecture to make a 3x1 diagonal group. I couldn't really stretch out the buildings anymore but the gap between them annoyed me so I put in a little park as hey, that's what they do in real life haha.
And this is how they look in-game (surrounding decoration are just temporary space fillers):
Looks so much better.. in fact the new building models look so good I realise I'm gonna need to do another pass on my original super buildings as this one next to them's floors look wonky and uneven lol. Oh and it's roof is at a weird angle.. and its windows need bluing.. jesus haha!!!
Always happens though with a big project.. you compare your later work to your earlier stuff and realise you're pretty much gonna have to redo all your earlier work lol!
Looks really super cool. Can you post a screenshot that hasn't been zoomed into?
Yup, will do a standard zoomed out 1:1 shot when there's more buildings done.. right now it's just a whole lot of those repetitive black filler buildings and unfinished super buildings which doesn't look very nice haha.
Btw when this scenario is at the point that it's good enough for a 'promotional' screenshot that I can use in videos and stuff I'm going to switch back to our HoMM scenario to finish it off completely (making a map, playing it, doing a video etc)) & release it. Just need to get this one to a point where it looks good. So I need to get busy and make more city buildings haha!
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