Communism in Civ 4

[VCrakeV]

Hello fellow fanatics. I find it interesting that there's a tech called Communism, but only one "communist" item from it: State Property. I was planning on making a small mod for traits and civics anyway, and was thinking of using this for some inspiration. However, would it "fit"? Would it make sense? How would/could it affect commerce/economy?

 

[Lexicus]

I would need more detail. What other "Communist" items would you be considering adding to the game? A Gulag tile improvement/building? Collective farms?

 

[VCrakeV]

I was thinking of mostly/entirely civics: Communitarianism (government), Collective Labor, and Communal Property come to mind. The only one that strikes me as a potential problem is Communal Property. How might that affect the economy in terms of gameplay?



But hey, those ideas are cool 😜

 

[nate46]

Gulags -- National Wonder -- 300h
+5 unhappiness in this city
+50% production in this city.
+1 happiness in all cities on this continent.

Communism -- Religious civic -- Low upkeep
Religions have no effect.
removes unhappyness penalty from slavery and from foreign emancipation civics.

any other ideas???

 

[Tristan_C]

I am not sure there is much to add. Police State + SP depicts real-life communist regimes well enough— whereas the end-game "stateless" communism has to be a worldwide phenomenon. It can't work to have a single state existing unilaterally amid a human race with no power structures anywhere else.

I mean what would the "stateless" civic do for you? All military units instantly disbanded? derp @that

 

[Lazteuq]

Communal Property sounds a lot like State Property to me. I guess there could be a unhappiness penalty for civs that don't know Communism yet, like how communist philosophy helped inspire some revolutions in Europe, of course Russia in 1917, but also back in 1848 when the Communist Manifesto was written. It could be something like

"+2 "Workers of the World, Unite!"

 

[Pepo]

Depends on what type of communism you want to represent: a Stalinist one or one based on communes? A Marxist industrial type or the agricultural Asian one?

 

[VCrakeV]

Depends on what type of communism you want to represent: a Stalinist one or one based on communes? A Marxist industrial type or the agricultural Asian one?

More of a "true" communism. I can think of what to do for other communism civics, but the economy one has me a little stumped. This is what I have right now:



No corporations, no foreign trade/corporations, + 25% food, production, commerce from trade routes, + 1 trade route... It's meant to emphasize internal trade/development.

 

[Lexicus]

+25% food is ridiculously unbalanced.

 

[VCrakeV]

+25% food is ridiculously unbalanced.

It's from trade routes, so it's really not that much. How it works is that it takes 25% of the trade route yields in commerce, and provides it in food. Not very much until late game, but I could change it... Not sure what number would be best.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

The current civics roster doesn't make too much sense anyway. I would restructure it like so:

Representation renamed to Oligarchy, available with Code of Laws
Police State renamed to Dictatorship or Autocracy, available with Nationalism
Nationhood renamed to Police State, available with Fascism
Free Speech renamed to Freedom or Liberty
Serfdom and Emancipation replaced with Capitalism (available with Economics) and Socialism (available with Communism)
State Property renamed to Central Planning
Environmentalism renamed to Public Welfare
Pacifism renamed to Tolerance
Free Religion renamed to Secularism
New military civic category, with the civics Militia, Mercenaries, Levies, Mass Conscription and Professional Army

Obviously some effects would have to be changed, and Universal Suffrage or Liberty/Freedom should be moved to Constitution because that tech should definitely unlock a civic.

Central Planning with Capitalism is today's China, CP with Slavery is Stalin's USSR, CP with Socialism is post Stalin USSR.

Edit: I was under the impression the gulag system was represented by Workshops with no food loss, but I have an idea for another wonder:

Berlin Wall
1000 Hammers
Requires Communism and Fascism and Rifling
+2 Great People Points (Great Spy)
Prevents all cities from culture flipping, negates civic unhappiness (like from current Emancipation)

 

[VCrakeV]

Hey knoedol. I don't think I would be able to make that emancipation counter thing. Right now, I'm making a small mod of a bigger mod (Extra). I suggest you check the original out, and thank the author for the awesome mod. It adds a lot, including a military civics section. It also makes some changes, but it's mostly a ton of additions. I'll think about adding some of your ideas. 😏

 

[Tristan_C]

Pacifism renamed to Tolerance

That's a modern ideology, though.

I can only imagine the energy, patience, and strength of character it would take to love your enemies. That's the ancient ideology of pacifism referenced in civ4 (Civilopedia Entry). The modern ideology of tolerance is about loving those who happen to agree with you despite some random physical trait that makes them not quite you. That takes no effort at all.

 

[Jivilov]

+25% food is ridiculously unbalanced.

Not to mention historically absurd. Most people haven't heard of the Ukrainian famine in the early 30's and in China after the so-called Great Leap Forward. More recently Cambodia experienced mass starvation under the Khmer Rouge. These were all presumably "workers' paradises" under Communist rule. But at least (except for the commissars, cadres, and top Party officials) they DID have equality .

 

[Lexicus]

Well to be fair the Khmer Rouge were reviled by (some of) their "fellow" Communists. Closer to fascism than communism imo but that's really beside the point.

Given that historically Communist regimes typically accomplished rapid state-directed industrialization, shifting from agrarian peasant societies to modern industrial economies, a more historically-appropriate communist theme would actually be reducing food output in exchange for lots of hammers. In-game State Property actually doesn't do this (certain improvements give more food) but I think SP+slavery give a reasonable approximation of the Maoist, Stalinist, etc. regimes. The fact that the Kremlin makes slavery more effective is a nice touch

 

[Lexicus]

That's a modern ideology, though.

I can only imagine the energy, patience, and strength of character it would take to love your enemies. That's the ancient ideology of pacifism referenced in civ4 (Civilopedia Entry). The modern ideology of tolerance is about loving those who happen to agree with you despite some random physical trait that makes them not quite you. That takes no effort at all.

Pacifism might be better re-worked as Scholasticism or Monasticism or something like that.

 

[Robo-Star]

Pacifism might be better re-worked as Scholasticism or Monasticism or something like that.

How so?

 

[VCrakeV]

It's (the mod) not meant to be historically accurate. As many of you seem to know, the "communism" we've seen in history was authoritarian and unsuccessful. I enjoy playing civ to recreate civilization, in a way I think is better. That's why I'm making this mod. In "true" communism, the means of production is meant for the good of everyone's welfare (including food), where as "historical" communism was to better the government, much like Capitalism.



The +25% food is for trade routes, and only has an effect at 4+ commerce routes. This is hard to do without foreign trade.

 

[Lexicus]

How so?

Because it pops out Great People, it would make more sense for the civic to be centered around forms of religious study.

 

[Robo-Star]

Because it pops out Great People, it would make more sense for the civic to be centered around forms of religious study.

Thanks for elaborating. That would also make sense with it being enabled by Philosophy.