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Communism, Marxism, Socialism, Capitalism, What are your thoughts?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Joij21, Jun 28, 2020.

  1. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    I 'am creating this thread as a place to discuss thoughts about Marxist ideas, socialism, capitalism, etc. This is also a place to express one's thoughts as to which one you prefer over others.
     
  2. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Marxism has shown itself to be a failure.
    Socialism and Capitalism are only worth talking about if one first states what one's goals for society are. Their appropriate application is highly dependent upon those goals.
     
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  3. REDY

    REDY Duty Caller

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    What I like on capitalism is that it works. It produces effectivity, activity, liberty and prosperity.
    The problem with communism is that it doesnt work. It produces inefficiency, passivity, oppression and misery.
     
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  4. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Socialism needs to be defined, but you will probably find the most viable solution within that categorization

    Capitalism does a lot. It just doesn't have solutions for its failure condition, where the accumulation of rent-seeking assets eventually creates widespread poverty merely because the capital holder doesn't care that other people are poor
     
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  5. Seon

    Seon Not An Evil Liar

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    Leaving aside argument for efficiency and activity, im fairly certain the counter-Democratic coups arranged by capital interests in the third world is evidence against it being purely a force for liberty. It also has no solution clause for its final phase in which the growth slows and the hyper rich have gathered so much power and influence that it need not compromise with the lower classes.

    Socialism I don’t particularly find too meaningfully distinct from Marxism considering the former is an umbrella term to which the latter belongs to. Ultimately theory does not translate well into practice, and any socialist/progressive/communist movement will likely find themselves relying upon existing, working plans.

    Generally speaking, though, the idea of fairly rewarding people for contribution to society is good and consistent one.
     
  6. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    Communism is a bad joke, can perhaps work on a small scale like a commune or something.

    Unregulated capitalism however is to far the other way. Some sort of social democracy seems to be the best approach probably with a constitutional monarch so the elected leader doesn't get to many stupid ideas (not a fan of republics).
     
  7. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

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    Fascist Italy was a constitutional monarchy.
     
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  8. REDY

    REDY Duty Caller

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    I think that capitalist accumulation does not create widespread poverty because the capital holder doesnt care about other people. It creates problem, when the capital holder doesnt care about his profit. For example he buys houses but not use/rent them and empty buildings are left to be vandalised.

    These are state interests. Its possible that some corporation buys people in government and lobby for coup. Its much harder than in communism, where communists and state interests were one.
    But yeah, generally, when you want talk about resources or alliance, you like one dictator who rules all country.

    Communes can work and they can compete in capitalism. On the other hand, capitalist companies cannot work much in communism... theoretically they can work but they needs state consent, some kind of privilege over all others.
     
  9. Seon

    Seon Not An Evil Liar

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    Thing is that constitutional monarchs only seems to intervene when the monarchy is threatened and not when the country is declaring war or pressing self destruct buttons with no plans whatsoever.

    Im fairly sure that considering most of these politicians are rich or are stock owners they can be considered capitalists too. Corruption is always going to be a problem when you are discussing state level entities no matter what the ideology is.
     
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  10. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    It's not really a critique of any specific capitalist. It's an endgame failure of capital accumulation of rent-seeking assets. You know how in chess or in Monopoly, there comes a point in the game where it's pointless to continue? Capitalism has that same thing as a failure mode. And it doesn't have a solution for that failure mode, really.

    It's why the broad term of 'socialism' is going to be most people's default answer. There are a bazillion ideas within 'socialism' that can both fix and prevent that failure mode. Or even prevent that failure mode from becoming too threatening.
     
  11. Seon

    Seon Not An Evil Liar

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    Obviously constant reforms within socialism will be necessary as there is no single solution that works for all eternity, but I think some measure socialist framework has the most flexibility than single minded devotion to capitalism.
     
  12. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    socialized capitalism
     
  13. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    Constantly evolving socialized capitalism progressing towards space exploring luxury communism.
     
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  14. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Every single post I make about economics or technology is with the understanding that my final goal is that everybody has replicators and holodecks
     
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  15. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    No, marxism was very correct. Marx's analysis of the way the capitalist system works was spot on. It was only the social-democratic tweaks that had to be put in place on several crisis occasions, plus the outright nationalization of economies in times of war, that kept it going. Capitalism on its own terms, capital accumulation of rent-seeking assets, indeed has an end-game of failure as @El_Machinae pointed out.
     
  16. REDY

    REDY Duty Caller

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    I am still puzzled. I know chess (well Narz would disagree:)) and Monopoly, is it situation when you actually have monopoly?
    There are certainly things which should be regulated by state to have competition and protect the weak players. When you fail in chess, why do not try Dungeons and Dragons?
    I generally feel that socialism is quite rigid. It will order you which figure you cant use but it will not improve your chess.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2020
  17. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    If all Marxism has to offer is its explanation of Capitalism, then it is hardly useful. The ills of capitalism are quite obvious.
     
  18. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

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    That's my end game too.
     
  19. Imaus

    Imaus King

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    Social Democracy is the worst form of politicoeconomics, save for all the others.

    We're never going to get a perfect system, especially not when dealing with armed camps of millions to billions. Just good enough for a while. Social Democracy, for now, seems to be the best for the average citizen, for now.
     
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  20. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    That's fair. There are about a bazillion ideas as to what 'socialism' is. When talking to people who self-identify as liberals, I'm certainly on the 'capitalist' end of the spectrum. But socialism has a few tenets.

    (a) the people have an ownership stake in the community which cannot be over-ridden through capital accumulation
    (b) the people have an interest (and say) in guiding the course of economic output
    (c) a person is 'worth more' than merely the most value they can extract from individual parties*

    point (a) allows the people to set a taxation rate that's good for them and also sets ceilings on what capital is allowed to purchase
    point (b) allows the people to purchase (with taxes [Lex, shush]) goods and services that they deem useful to the group
    point (c) means that people might be entitled to more than they can gain merely through free exchange of their labour or personal bonds

    The thing with socialism is that it's naturally selected for. Any country that doesn't allow the creation of collective goals will eventually become owned by countries that do.
     
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