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Communism, Marxism, Socialism, Capitalism, What are your thoughts?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Joij21, Jun 28, 2020.

  1. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Your case was that they are not the same thing because onerous debt is the result of poor individual decision-making. If this is the case, then people who make correct decisions should reliably avoid the experience of onerous debt. Is this the empirically supported?
     
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  2. Cloud_Strife

    Cloud_Strife Deity

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    Why aren't you doing it NOW
     
  3. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Not at all. I think that such a solution is a path to social failure. I do know enough about business and start ups to know that most people are not suited to it without substantial changes in what they know.
     
  4. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    Then social democracy is the solution to such woes. Not changing society into a communist regime.
     
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  5. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    I have never advocated communism or anything close.
     
  6. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    Because I don't feel like it.
     
  7. Cloud_Strife

    Cloud_Strife Deity

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    Clearly you have no genuine or sincere interest in taking your own advice.
     
  8. JohannaK

    JohannaK Heroically Clueless

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    The last two pages are so much fun.
     
  9. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Currently we are debt financing dependent because of the way the banking system works. It works until it doesn't then it goes to sheet. Avoiding big debt is the best way to stay out of trouble. Our eyes, though, are bigger than our stomachs and we go into debt when we should not. That happens at both the individual and corporate levels.
     
  10. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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  11. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    It wouldn't be like that if the fed were abolished. Debt would be more reasonable and the economy wouldn't be so reliant on it.
     
  12. Joij21

    Joij21 Prince

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    I don't have all the answers, I'm not perfect. Do you have better advice?
     
  13. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    Slaves were not particularly known for having luxuries, free time, and equal agency with everyone else.
     
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  14. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    At an individual level there nay be some truth to that, but when huge swathes of the economy are built on the premise that people will accept onerous levels of debt, we can't really pretend that this is an individual problem, that hundreds of millions of people across the globe have spontaneously made the same poor decisions. Somebody is making this credit available, and somebody is creating the social context in which entering into this sort of debt is both expected and to a degree encouraged. Some sort of collective responsibility needs to be taken forr that. Compare this to smoking tobacco: no tobacco company ever forced consumers to use their product, but they operated on the assumption that people would, and therefore bear some responsibility for the negative outcomes, and while the information that tobacco was bad for you was available for decades, but consumption did not experience significant decline until large-scale collective action was taken to restrict the availability of the product and to diminish the acceptability of its consumption.

    And even this is assuming that debt is merely an individual consumer choice, like smoking tobacco. In reality, a lot of credit is used to finance things like education and homes, which are, if not absolute material necessities, widely understood to be part of what is broadly called a "middle-class lifestyle", and which are assumed to be, if not an entitlement, then by right accessible to anyone who wishes to pursue them. I don't know if we can tell people that these aspirations represent mistaken consumer choices without simply abandoning one of the central myths of twentieth century capitalism, that it guarantees a broad based of prosperity and material consumption.
     
  15. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    You don't know that at all. Much of what the Fed does is preserve the stock value of the biggest banks.

    Interest on debt has been exceedingly reasonable since 2009. Corporate debt financing has been out of control since Reagan.
     
  16. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    It's interesting that you choose to put "meat packing plant" as an undesirable job. Because it is a crappy job, one of the worst, in the capitalist country you know. Being a butcher was once something respectable, even a good trade. Now capitalism has managed to thoroughly crapify it.

    But as it happens the communist soviets didn't import semi-slave labour from abroad to staff huge meat-packing plants. Not did they press the workers in plants to labour long hours side-by-side without rest. Why not? They couldn't compel them with the threat of firing them to be destitute living on the street, or deported back to another miserable country they had fled.
    The USSR had smaller industries spread throughout the country and employed people locally, in larger numbers. Current high priests of capitalism will call that lack of willingness to fully exploit workers and make their lives hell: "inefficiently".

    Take this western report from 1984 about the meat industry in the USSR:

    The "inefficiency" here was probably the black market and local exchange of favors working to put part of the production outside the central control and statistics collection. Meat was thus unevenly distributed: rationed not by price mechanisms as in the west but by proximity to production. The workers of the meat plants certainly managed to have better access to the meat they worked with than the other citizens, that was the nature of the system where informal exchanges took place because the formal ones were not flexible enough. And I don't doubt a choice of the best cuts. In the capitalist west now... the rationing being done by price the workers who do the meat packing are too poor to afford the best of that which their spend their days packing.

    It might be then that, at least for some people, the friendly workplace administrator finding you a job in a meat plant was preferable to the administrator finding you a job with a desk? The "bad jobs"you thing you know need not be "bad jobs".

    Another report by 1993 claimed that the (former) soviets... ate too much meat! How dare they have it so good. They should learn to be poor...

    Apparently even today the russian meat plans are still not as "efficient" in exploiting workers as the US ones.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  17. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

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    Easy credit for both people and corporations began in the 80s. CC and company debts were a new way for "banks" to make easy money. It was too easy and they grew into trillion dollar businesses. Easy credit made customers feel rich and prosperous. Putting that genie back in the bottle will be hard. Accepting personal responsibility for ones actions is hard for most people. Pulling out the plastic is much easier. Adding more money at the lower end of the system might help (UBI). For corporations, it will take take moving away from short term thinking and rewards.
     
  18. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

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    Meat plants here pay pretty well. Major employer in my home town paid double and triple time, base pay was around double minimum wage.

    Soviets did not eat a huge amount of meat apparently although that might vary by city. Moscow and Leningrad had higher priority.

    Well beef anyway. Fish was available.

    Here cheap meat was mince, sausages, mutton expensive steak, chicken.

    Chickens less than $7 a kg atm.
     
  19. Cloud_Strife

    Cloud_Strife Deity

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    UbI.
     
  20. Aleksey_aka_al

    Aleksey_aka_al Smiley

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    In movies and propaganda materials only.
     

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