1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Communism, Marxism, Socialism, Capitalism, What are your thoughts?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Joij21, Jun 28, 2020.

  1. gay_Aleks

    gay_Aleks communism will win.

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    10,791
    Location:
    Nightvale, US
    China seems to be reopening, while the U.S is paralyzed and wants to throw in schoolchildren to the dogs.
     
    Gorbles likes this.
  2. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Messages:
    4,807
    Location:
    UK
    Sure. That in no way relates to other countries' handlings of a pandemic due to their prioritisation of short-sighted for-profit endeavours.
     
    Moriarte likes this.
  3. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    11,102
    Location:
    北京皇城
    The nice thing about libertarianism is their holy texts are more arcane and unmoored from reality than anything a Marxist has ever come up with.

    Also screeching about ChiComs starting pandemics, gotta love it.
     
    Gorbles and gay_Aleks like this.
  4. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2001
    Messages:
    40,165
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    NM has two national Labs: Sandia and Los Alamos. Both are now heavily invested in spinning out non defense tech to the private sector.

    For example UbiQD has used Los Alamos research into quantum dots to create QD film for greenhouses to boost productivity and for window glass to generate electricity. NM has lots of this going on. DoD research dollars gets spun out into private companies that find markets to apply that technology and then sell products.
     
    El_Machinae likes this.
  5. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2001
    Messages:
    40,165
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    Just don't leave off your list the attempts by communist countries to overthrow non communist regimes from 1945-2000. Everyone wants to impose their system on others because it is "better".
     
    El_Machinae likes this.
  6. gay_Aleks

    gay_Aleks communism will win.

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    10,791
    Location:
    Nightvale, US
    If we're talking about Eastern Europe post-WWII, you'd probably have to blame Churchill more than anyone; he looked at the area, and beyond Greece, shrugged his shoulders and went, "Sure, go on, take whatever you want.". Not that there was all that much he could do. And besides, what, the former fascist collaborators should just stay there?
     
  7. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2014
    Messages:
    4,807
    Location:
    UK
    A lot of them do, but to be specific, we were talking socialist. Not communist (or Communist / more generally autocratic).

    Additionally, the context was a hypothetical socialist society, and why one hasn't easily sprang into being in the recent past. The context was not a hypothetical form of other governance interfered with by outside aggressors. The parallel I was attempting to argue (to keep it to a reasonable scope more than anything else) was between capitalism and socialism. Springing "what about communism" into the mix doesn't actually help the argument at all. We have established capitalist countries. Quite a few of them.
     
    Birdjaguar and El_Machinae like this.
  8. AmazonQueen

    AmazonQueen Virago

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    Messages:
    5,470
    Location:
    Climbing Kero Fin
    Are you subscribing to conspiracy theories now?
    Theres a difference between the virus started in China and China started the virus.
     
    Gorbles and gay_Aleks like this.
  9. Estebonrober

    Estebonrober Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2017
    Messages:
    4,806
    Gender:
    Male
    so no national healthcare in Japan then?
     
  10. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Messages:
    44,946
    Location:
    Pale Blue Dot youtube=wupToqz1e2g
    We can even grant that China bungled their early response and international communication. This doesn't change how timelines work, though. They bungled and then they adapted. Other countries were then infected and they bungled. They had a small advantage over China, because they were able to notice China's bungling and then adapt to it. It's not like there was a secret cabal in China lying to the WHO, but properly handling it themselves. They were misinforming the WHO and also dealing with their own lack of knowledge. Beijing was declaring a state of emergency well-before there were significant outbreaks elsewhere. And those outbreaks had the early advantages that Beijing did not. Like ... um ... the actual DNA sequence. Or a set of symptoms

    Now, a liberal society is going to have a harder time dealing with a pandemic than an illiberal one. There are just fewer checks on people's liberty to move. Fewer ways to track people. And probably even less infrastructure to trace people. Regardless, however, there is a strong component of socialism required to successfully handle a pandemic. We also cannot truly judge the relative successes yet, since 'successful response' to a pandemic isn't just captured by the number of people who died. We have a global bomb of poverty coming because of the lockdown and there's a good chance that many people have suffered more from the lockdowns than we know.
     
    Birdjaguar likes this.
  11. amadeus

    amadeus The Choice of a New Generation

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2001
    Messages:
    35,267
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Osaka (大阪)
    I don’t know if it was intentional or not, but the subsequent coverups, lying and misinformation most certainly are.

    There is, but that doesn’t make a country socialist.

    I’ll try to keep it brief and explain to the best of my understanding: in principle, all residents of Japan are in one of two plans, a national health insurance plan or a company health insurance plan. Functionally at the clinic/hospital level these are basically the same, the only difference I know of is how the payments into the system are made, where companies pay half of the costs to the system and deduct the other half from salary. Of course this just works out to be less in cash compensation, but neither here nor there in explaining the system.

    There are public hospitals but most (80%ish?) are private, and clinics are definitely private. At clinics/hospitals you have a 30% copay and the rest is covered under the insurance. There are price controls on approved treatments and I believe these are adjusted biannually.

    Overall, I’ve been happy with the system.
     
    Birdjaguar likes this.
  12. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    11,102
    Location:
    北京皇城
    And nothing to do with socialism whatsoever.
     
  13. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Messages:
    44,946
    Location:
    Pale Blue Dot youtube=wupToqz1e2g
    Is there a trendline of blaming capitalism for imperialism? Or do we blame imperialism for ruining some of the social experiments that countries are trying?
    Both capitalist systems and communist systems seem to have incentive to interfere with countries outside of their borders. How much of that is packaged in the underlying economic theory?
    (I've already discussed how 'debt trap' motivates later police actions, I guess).
     
    Birdjaguar likes this.
  14. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2001
    Messages:
    40,165
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    How do you define imperialism? When do you see it beginning in Europe? 1492? 1600? 1815?
     
  15. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Messages:
    44,946
    Location:
    Pale Blue Dot youtube=wupToqz1e2g
    I don't see a beginning, but it would be the use of a country's resources to destabilize or 'motivate' the citizens of another nation. Nearly any invasion or set of sanctions would qualify.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
  16. REDY

    REDY Duty Caller

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2004
    Messages:
    4,668
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Praha
    What is stopping socialists in liberal capitalist country building own companies owned by workers and parallel economy system? Capitalists took power over feudalists, feudalist oppression was perhaps suppressing and delaying it, but was not able to stop it and in the end it just have to participated in it. In communist countries under worst repression there was grey economy, people outside system offering what people needed and not what was state party offering. Nearly everybody was reading Samizdat, listening free Europe to actually get relevant informations. There was parallel education and culture. How actually can communism exist without oppression and how the current liberal capitalist state suppress it?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2020
    Birdjaguar likes this.
  17. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2001
    Messages:
    40,165
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    Implementation and proof of concept projects may not be their forte. ;)

    There are many co-op companies, ESOPs or other worker owned businesses in the US. They rarely make any headlines though.
    https://www.esop.org
     
  18. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

    Joined:
    May 26, 2006
    Messages:
    11,102
    Location:
    北京皇城
    Capitalism leads to imperialism. There are a few ways of framing this view, but one of the most enduring especially in the non-First World is Lenin's Imperialism, the Highest Form of Capitalism.

    Summarizing the argument in broad strokes, the idea is there is nothing fundamentally different about the pathologies of capitalist expansion (and thus exploitation) and what we might call "imperialist" expansion and exploitation. Birdjaguar threw out a couple of dates, honestly we can pick any of those because it's a relative proposition, as some measure of industrialization has accompanied the very earliest efforts of European imperialism. Since Columbus's time, merchants sought access to new markets, sought new goods to trade, sought cheap labor to make goods en masse, and thus in every instance also indulged the appetites of so-called imperialists.

    The incentive to imperialize is purely natural under capitalism for these reasons. It's why, despite a bloody de-colonizing struggle in the last half century against the European colonial regimes, there continues to be some degree of economic imperialism, because the basic pathologies have not changed at all. What has changed, say in Africa, is the wherewithal of people to resist imperialism. And we could talk about how imperialism self-cannibalized in every nation it was attempted, to the end of fostering dozens and dozens of anti-colonial revolutions, but we'd be getting into a separate (though interesting) subject.

    Back to capitalism then, Lenin wrote specifically in terms of the European imperialism of his time, albeit recognizing these pathologies had persisted since the very beginning of the merchant class's power and, thus, had metastasized into something new with the advent of mechanical industry:

    None of this is to say non-capitalists can't be imperialists, nor that socialist economies can't conquer non-socialist economies, but that capitalism as we have observed it, historically, has created the imperialism as we know it today, and which still persists today.

    As a matter of fact, what prevents worker-based parallel economy efforts is... the capitalist state. The late 19th and early 20th centuries were marked by violence against labor and concomitant labor uprisings against intolerant conditions. The entire history of the creation of the welfare state in every country it's been realized has been a history of labor rising up and winning victories for itself. And we can see, objectively, that the workers' creation of the welfare state is a far more sustainable model of "capitalism" than the hard-nosed bootstrap free market havens the capitalists keep trying to push. It's also true that when the capitalists try to roll back the welfare state and erode those privileges - as we can see happen in Britain and France and other parts of the EU - it's again the workers' responsibility to create political power in parallel to capital's and then champion for their own rights.

    Right now a similar "grey economy" exists in America, except with a bewildering jungle of contradictory media and absolute shortages in most necessities in the bottom half of the economy. The import of medicine, for example, from where it might be cheaper or more effective, is banned.
     
  19. Moriarte

    Moriarte Immortal

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,988
    Furthermore, we already observed through history of the 20th century, how the crisis of imperialism, brought about by cyclical nature of capitalist free markets can cause a reaction, whereby monopolised capital in pursuit of increased profitability, international competitiveness and stability formulates a “new solution” and a way forward to unite a nation under the corporate state. The form may differ, but the substance remained the same: minimise costs for the capitalist class, maximise costs for the working class.
     
  20. Aleksey_aka_al

    Aleksey_aka_al Smiley

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2008
    Messages:
    2,504
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Moscow, USSR
    No. That is how it is in a capitalist dominated world based on nationalism. Communists have to deal with it. And unlike communists the only end goal capitalists always have is to exploit. So this interference is very different.
     
    Crezth likes this.

Share This Page