Communism: Still unworkable

Cajamarca

Chieftain
Joined
Jul 10, 2012
Messages
48
There are a few problems with the Order tree.

First off, its benefits are greatest when you have a large empire. Yet large empires have the hardest time accumulating policies. If you've gone wide and haven't bothered to waste hammers on Opera Houses and the Hermitage, it will take an eternity to finish the tree.

Second, Great Engineers start to lose their luster at around this point, so buying them with Faith is a less useful ability. I can see immediately blowing some stockpiled Faith to snag the Brandenburg Gate, Eiffel Tower, or Statue of Liberty, but the one must-have wonder for a Space Race victory (the victory condition Order best supports with its focus on high Science and a wide manufacturing base) is the Hubble, and given the large number of Factories in your civilization, you'll likely spawn at least one Great Engineer naturally between the Industrial and Information eras, whom any non-idiot would save for the Hubble. Therefore, the Faith-bought engineers would naturally be spent on other, less-useful wonders. CN Tower comes too late, Eiffel gives less Happiness to you than to a Piety+Freedom player due to your lower overall Policy count, the Pentagon is hilariously terrible, Sydney Opera House and Cristo Redentor are only good because your playstyle has already handicapped you in that area and you may need to cockblock Ethiopia or India, and several smaller cities means you can't focus the full power of the Statue of Liberty in one place for Wonderspam, though it is still one of the stronger Wonders and is tied with Brandenburg for your one (or two if your religion doesn't encourage evangelism and has no unique buildings) Faith-buy.

Another problem is the strength of the central policies compared to the utter 'meh' of the left and right policies.

Nationalism is alright, actually, since defending a wide empire is harder than defending a tall one, but United Front is extremely situational, and the units you receive will not benefit from the Armory, Military Academy, and Heroic Epic you've built in your unit-producing city. Occasionally, a Military City-State may not have even built a Barracks yet.


So, how to fix it? A few simple tweaks come to mind:

* Adopting Order also reduces the social policy cost increase from cities by 33% and adds +2 Culture per city. (Stacks with Representation).

* Planned Economy adds +5 Production to Manufactories.

*Replace United Front with something else. A couple ideas:

Collectivism: In cities with a Granary, 10% of food is carried over after a new citizen is born (stacks with Aqueduct and Medical Lab). Aqueducts, Granaries, Hospitals, and Medical Labs can be built in half the usual time.

Technocracy: Each city adds +1% Great Engineer and +1% Great Scientist production in the capital, to a maximum of +25%. +1 Science from each Workshop, Factory, Windmill, Solar Plant, Hydro Plant, Nuclear Plant, Recycling Center, and Spaceship Factory.

Classless Society: +1 Happiness from each Workshop, Factory, and Windmill. -5% Unhappiness from populations in unoccupied cities (stacks with Meritocracy and Forbidden Palace).
 
I think a LOT of policy trees need to be reworked, and this is a great start.
Also on the list: Liberty and Peity.
 
I like these ideas. Although I don't think planned economy needs a buff. it's pretty good as it is.

I agree with peacemongerer, classless society sounds like a good policy and it makes choosing order make you feel like a communist even more.
 
Classless Society sounds like a good one.

I had the feeling, when I typed it, that it would probably be the one. I decided to still post the others, since I didn't want to seem like I was advocating for any one solution in particular.
 
There are a few problems with the Order tree.

First off, its benefits are greatest when you have a large empire. Yet large empires have the hardest time accumulating policies. If you've gone wide and haven't bothered to waste hammers on Opera Houses and the Hermitage, it will take an eternity to finish the tree.

Second, Great Engineers start to lose their luster at around this point, so buying them with Faith is a less useful ability. I can see immediately blowing some stockpiled Faith to snag the Brandenburg Gate, Eiffel Tower, or Statue of Liberty, but the one must-have wonder for a Space Race victory (the victory condition Order best supports with its focus on high Science and a wide manufacturing base) is the Hubble, and given the large number of Factories in your civilization, you'll likely spawn at least one Great Engineer naturally between the Industrial and Information eras, whom any non-idiot would save for the Hubble. Therefore, the Faith-bought engineers would naturally be spent on other, less-useful wonders. CN Tower comes too late, Eiffel gives less Happiness to you than to a Piety+Freedom player due to your lower overall Policy count, the Pentagon is hilariously terrible, Sydney Opera House and Cristo Redentor are only good because your playstyle has already handicapped you in that area and you may need to cockblock Ethiopia or India, and several smaller cities means you can't focus the full power of the Statue of Liberty in one place for Wonderspam, though it is still one of the stronger Wonders and is tied with Brandenburg for your one (or two if your religion doesn't encourage evangelism and has no unique buildings) Faith-buy.

Another problem is the strength of the central policies compared to the utter 'meh' of the left and right policies.

Nationalism is alright, actually, since defending a wide empire is harder than defending a tall one, but United Front is extremely situational, and the units you receive will not benefit from the Armory, Military Academy, and Heroic Epic you've built in your unit-producing city. Occasionally, a Military City-State may not have even built a Barracks yet.


So, how to fix it? A few simple tweaks come to mind:

* Adopting Order also reduces the social policy cost increase from cities by 33% and adds +2 Culture per city. (Stacks with Representation).

* Planned Economy adds +5 Production to Manufactories.

*Replace United Front with something else. A couple ideas:

Collectivism: In cities with a Granary, 10% of food is carried over after a new citizen is born (stacks with Aqueduct and Medical Lab). Aqueducts, Granaries, Hospitals, and Medical Labs can be built in half the usual time.

Technocracy: Each city adds +1% Great Engineer and +1% Great Scientist production in the capital, to a maximum of +25%. +1 Science from each Workshop, Factory, Windmill, Solar Plant, Hydro Plant, Nuclear Plant, Recycling Center, and Spaceship Factory.

Classless Society: +1 Happiness from each Workshop, Factory, and Windmill. -5% Unhappiness from populations in unoccupied cities (stacks with Meritocracy and Forbidden Palace).

This is all completely unnecessary, I usually go wide and found 15 - 20 cities on standard map size, and still finish Order with little problems. Spending hammers on opera houses is not a waste at all, its an investment in exchange for the polices. That's the whole point in culture buildings... :rolleyes: Accumulating the culture isn't that hard, just build all the culture buildings and invest in cultural CS to speed up the process. The polices are already powerful enough (ok the military CS one is a bit so-so) but the production and factory bonuses are huge, and the finisher is also extremely powerful for ICS.

Your suggestion for 'reduces the social policy cost increase from cities by 33%' is completely ridiculous. I assume you mean reduce all future costs by 33% (like the piety finisher reduces by 10%)... that would be so broken it would be every cultural victory strategy would involve unlocking it asap. Unless you are referring to a more powerful version of Representation, which would still be useless as by the time you unlock the tree, you have already founded your cities anyway...
 
I don't think the problem really lies with Ord policies. It has to do with how late it comes into play like Auto, and the fact that the opener is so extremely strong as to make the others puny by comparison. It's exactly like in vanilla, opening Rationalism then leave it there because the opener - 50% RA boost - is all there is needed.

Things like opera houses and museums are necessary if you want to finish or take more policies. No empire should be absolved from this, tall or wide. A Tradition 4-city approach will still need those museums if it is to achieve the Rat. finisher for the late techs. Having said that, switching the happiness bonus to the finisher while taking out the culture and making it the new opener would balance things IMO. Faster policies yes, France is happy, and no more ridiculous amounts of 100+ happiness just because you also happened to adopt Lib. and some stuff from religion. The rest, they are not the most superb policies but certainly not underwhelming so I can live with them.
 
Order is very beneficial for a puppet empire.

IMO, this game has a balance between two game choices that you can make. One is puppetting all cities. The other is annexing all cities. With puppetting, you can't choose buildings, and therefore can't build optimally. However, you get several bonuses: 1) you don't get increased costs for social policies; 2) bonuses to happiness (or reduction in maintenance costs); and other benefits.

If you choose order with a mostly puppet empire, the benefits you get are huge and this is definitely achievable. If you try for order with annexed cities, it's harder to get these benefits. However, this is all part of the price you pay for managing all captured cities. I think this is a really good design choice, which forces people to think twice about annexing every city.

With a puppet empire, planned economy is amazing. 3 deep in and it boosts science output by probably 100-200 on its own.

I do agree that united front is extremely weak.
 
Unless you are referring to a more powerful version of Representation, which would still be useless as by the time you unlock the tree, you have already founded your cities anyway...
The cultural reduction from cities works even after you found them. It only take effect, if memory serves, a policy after you took the Liberty one. So it's like taking Representation -> take another policy -> all the policies now enjoy the representation bonus.
 
I find order to be great as is.

The policy costs will be high, but that is the price for going wide. If you don't want to "waste" hammers on cultural buildings, even a 1 city empire won't be filling out policy trees.

The fact is that the opener is absolutely massive for wide empires. It has single-handedly pulled games out of the dumpster for me, so you don't even have to go deep to get the advantages.

Extra GE's are never a bad thing. I'd actually say they really start to become useful around the industrial era, when they won't 1 turn build wonders, but that means not leaving hammers on the table, either.

While I tend to agree that united front is strange in a wide empire policy tree, the only logical thing that comes to mind is something quite extreme, requiring a rework of at least autocracy as well. Move planned economy to the side and replace the base of the central tower with Marxism (thus allowing for the logical flow from Marxism to Socialism to Communism) 100% more strategic resources. I'd probably add a small production bonus to making units as well.

However, currently the central tower is fantastic, and the side policies are ok, if a bit strange, while the opener and finisher are outstanding as well, and it does greatly benefit wide empires, like it says on the tin, with nationalism taking advantage of your large land area, planned economy giving you science for the factories small cities need to ramp up production, and lots of gold saved on maintenance.

If it has a problem it is that it just covers too much, basically every victory condition except culture, while Freedom is really culture oriented and autocracy seems best for small or puppet heavy domination oriented civs.

I'm not against improving policy trees, but I don't think the problems you see are very extreme at all and in fact sometimes are not problems at all (needing lots of culture for instance).
 
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