Community Deity Game #21 - China

[poxpower]

Anyone close to finishing this game?

I retried this map maybe 4-5 times. Victory isn't a problem, but being competitive is.
I did manage to get 6 comp bows on turn 55, then machinery turn 95.

But then I was just being too slow with my wars, waiting until machinery to even attack the first AI. I was very slow and methodical in taking capitals, which is really unnecessary. Eventually I just started to make trebuchets which would kill cities in way fewer hits than the massive army of chuks that just were starting to deal no damage.

Really better to attack the first AI with comp bows only, then to keep pressure high on AI cities and not just wait to kill all their units before moving in. I was basically playing to not lose a single unit, which while great in theory is just SO SLOW. Lol. You can worker-bait a unit out of their city for like 10 turns straight, it never ends.

So just rushing the city with like 3 trebuchets, 2 knights and 4 chuks or whatever resulted in 1 trebuchet dying but me taking the city right away.

But I just started doing that too late and now I'm like.. blah. Your time is just too fast for me to think I'd have a chance to beat it anyway.

 

[DanQuayle]

I just checked back the DCL16 thread and nobody (except Acken) was able to clear the pangea with CKNs. Clearing a pangea with CKNs only is an exploit in itself. Maybe I was just lucky in my game? I don't know, but everything seemed to go smoothly in it. If your conquest stalls, you can always wait for Cannons or Artillery to finish the push (by going Education after Machinery) or you can stabilize for a CV via Archeologist spam.

Why not attack if you have 6 early CBs and I presume 2-3 spearmen? The point of a timing attack is to attack asap. If you are not attacking with your CBs with an early Construction then you are better off going straight to Philosophy (before Construction) then to Machinery (for an earlier Machinery). In my game, I took two capitals with CBs before researching Machinery. Building a 2nd army also speeds up the conquest.

 

[beetle]

I had my 20 CNKs but could not keep them all alive. So then just used them up like they were nothing. I still had not won by T340, but the WL vote was coming up so I just quit to play the GotM. I will probably try it again. Even worse than my usual habits was (1) missing the nearby NW, and (2) putting two expos on the coast. I was thinking ahead to Prora, but they were really kind of a drag all game long.

 

[poxpower]

Why not attack if you have 6 early CBs and I presume 2-3 spearmen? The point of a timing attack is to attack asap. If you are not attacking with your CBs with an early Construction then you are better off going straight to Philosophy (before Construction) then to Machinery (for an earlier Machinery). In my game, I took two capitals with CBs before researching Machinery. Building a 2nd army also speeds up the conquest.

The main problem is that I tried CBrush in my first game where I only had CBs around turn 70 and Austria, the easiest target, had a MASSIVE army of horsemen and swordsmen. She had well over 20 units, I have no idea why.
She did the same every game so I was just like.. fine I'll wait for machinery. I never built NC.
I did have two armies but yah the AIs were allied with all city-states around me and all dowed me at the same time, constantly ( like in Acken's game lol ). It's just insanely tedious if you're not far enough ahead. Around turn 130 chuks start to deal much less damage and the AI has muskets and their cities are indestructible...

 

[adcarrymaokai]

I didn't do achievements, but I finished with Domination on turn 211. It was a 4-city peaceful tradition game until I got artillery, and then it just became a bloodshed. 2 armies went east and west, and finally met each other during the siege of Ulundi, forming a crescent-shaped empire.

 

[consentient]

T134 Quit

My sweep order was wrong, and I should have built more troops and pushed all-in for the CKN sweep. I actually played uncharacteristically conservatively, with more focus on the empire, thinking that CKNs would not be enough. This hedging meant that by the time it came to deal with

Spoiler :

the Zulu

, approaching them along the coast from

Spoiler :

Istanbul

meant I had a too narrow arc of fire. I should have gone straight north after taking Vienna, and/or made a two-pronged attack.

I can't be bothered to replay (or to make peace and tech towards Dynamite), but yeah, my conclusion is that this map is definitely clearable with CKNs provided your tactics and troop movements are better though out.

I'm just a bit rusty. The start is really strong - 4 good spots for cities and some easy worker steals.

 

[beetle]

I am doing better on my retry. Map knowledge is certainly quite helpful! I have much better expo locations. I still went Tradition since I felt there exactly four good spots. I am slower than most here, but working at a better than average pace for me. As compared my previous game, I have no religion, and much fewer worker steals, but one cap under my belt on T106. NC on T107 (on four cities). 6th CB on T75 (exactly) for a point, and Machinery will be on T121 for another point. Plenty of gold on hand to upgrade the 6 CBs.

Cap and 1st expo just finished Barracks and I am ready to build nothing but units from here on out.

Spoiler to name civs :

Early war with Haile for a worker steal and to secure the Lake Victoria spot. Unfortunately he rallied units enough to imperil my expo and shortly thereafter he built the Great Wall. But now he is friendly, and all my units have made the trip to Kilimanjaro.

Maria Theresa asked me to DOW Zulu with her, right after Shaka took Istanbul. I agreed and was able to take Istanbul from Shaka, then make peace. Shaka surrounded Instanbul in a sea of Impi (I had given him OB), but he took my 9gpt bribe to DOW Maria Theresa before our forced peace expired. I plan to DOW her right after I upgrade the CBs to CNKs. I am hoping I can keep Shaka distracted with one war bribe after the other.

 

[consentient]

You won't get anywhere with T121 Machinery. And if you are going Tradition, why is NC so late?

 

[beetle]

You won't get anywhere with T121 Machinery.

I think it may be enough to deal with the neighbor to the west.

And if you are going Tradition, why is NC so late?

I do not really know enough about what I am doing wrong to be able to say. I kept some notes and would welcome peoples’ feedback.

Spoiler turn log :

Cap BO: Scout (upgraded to Archer), Scout, Scout, Archer, Settler, Monument, Shrine, Archer, Settler, CB, CB, Stoneworks, NC
1st expo BO: Granary, Library, Settler, CB, caravans and workers
2nd expo: Library, Granary
3rd expo: Library is purchased, so Granary then a worker
T000 Settle on flat, 1 hex to NE (map knowledge: I want a little more room down stream, and to have dyes in the third ring.
T005 Ruins give 95 gold
T009 Ruins upgrade scout
T010 Meet Haile
T014 2x Ruins gives 20 culture and 80 gold. Open Tradition.
T015 Meet Maria Theresa
T022 Haile finally gives up a worker.
T034 Settle LV
T059 Construction researched, plenty of gold on hand.
T067 Settle Guangzhou on river hill near mountain, between Belgrade and Vatican City
T068 Have to make peace with Haile, but he has Shanghai on the ropes.
T069 Pantheon, take Stone Circles
T071 Haile builds Great Wall. Maybe I should do Maria Theresa first.
T072 Last religion goes.
T074 Istanbul falls to Shaka. Maria Theresa wants me to DOW Shaka with her. I agree.
T075 6th CB online for 1 point. I abuse map knowledge to walk everyone north to Kilimanjaro
T076 Meet Ahmad
T080 Meet Elizabeth
T086 Purchase Library in Nanjing
T092 Maria Theresa settles Bregenz near me, between Florence and Antananarivo.
T101 Close out Tradition
T107 NC done
T108 Capture and puppet Istanbul. Make peace with Shaka
T119 Bribe Shaka to DOW Maria Theresa
T120 Portugal (whom I have not actually met) enters Renaissance
T121 Machinery researched, 6 CBs upgraded, and starting to March on Vienna

 

[consentient]

OK...I'll be honest:

Spoiler :

-Settling a city T67 is terrible. All cities should be settled before T50. On this map, there is no reason at all to take so long.
-You've gone to Construction before Philosophy. If not doing CB rush or playing Inca, there is no reason to do this
-Shanghai on the ropes? Should have made peace ASAP if not planning to conquer him early (as I did)
-T69 pantheon is a poor show. There are LOTS of quarries available on this map and if you settle early, improve them, and work them, you can get a religion, not a pantheon
-T74 you DoW the most powerful civ yet you had no intention of taking his cap. Don't go to war unless you want to. It just gets you hate you don't want, for no benefit.
-T101 you finish Tradition. This is really the worst. You got free monuments man! And a culture ruin. Bottom line: your cities must have been tiny. If you don't grow the cities, Tradition is pointless. And it's a poor choice on this map anyway.
-T121 your army is 6 XBs?
-You built 3 scouts yet haven't met the Western most civ by T120? Don't you know that Maria the Mad will make DoF within 10 turns of meeting you in most games? That's a ton of free gold, given that you control the Silver market. I had 3x DoF, and enough gold to upgrade 10 CBs on T55, which helped me capture 2 capitals. Despite taking 2 capitals, I still had 2x DoF on T99 when I got Machinery, because of Diplomacy. You pay the creeps to attack the friends, and then Denounce. This is basic.

No offence, but EVERYTHING is wrong.

If you had map knowledge, then you know there is zero chance of an early DoW in this game, and easy worker steals. I think I had 8 workers by the time I settled my last city.

Even if I had gone Tradition, I'd have had 5 or 6. With no likely DoW, your aim is to expand ASAP and get NC ASAP. What took you so long?

Q: Have you read Tabernak's food caravans strategy yet? Have you overcome your hesitancy to watch good players videos to SHOW you how to play better yet? Have you researched Domination strategies properly?

I mean, if you're comfortable replaying every map 3 times and making it 5x harder than it needs to be, that's your call, but I've seen you struggling for a while now and you don't seem to be getting any better.

I would bet good money that your 6 XBs will get Musketed by Maria T and you will make peace with no universities around the time the AI gets public schools.

Better luck next time.

 

[beetle]

I would bet good money that your 6 XBs will get Musketed by XXX and you will make peace with no universities around the time the AI gets public schools.

Not that it any good, but I did not loose any CNK to Muskets. But then around T160 her UU shows up and she builds Red Fort so her cap is strength 80, about twice as strong as the other AI cities. So then I make peace. I have 14 CNK, but only one has gotten to range. Last University was up around T150. I still have a few techs to go before I can Oxford Dynamite.

 

[DanQuayle]

This hedging meant that by the time it came to deal with

Spoiler :

the Zulu

, approaching them along the coast from

Spoiler :

Istanbul

meant I had a too narrow arc of fire.

Yeah, I attacked from that angle and it was definitely the hardest part in my game. What I did was place my CKNs in a defensive position and let the AI try to take over that capital. Some units will inevitably embark and will be easily picked off. I killed a good chunk of that AI's army that way. However, in my favor that AI hadn't researched Gunpowder yet and it had not planted a city at the emplacement shown in your screenshot.

I now realize that my map had many coastal capitals which kind of limits your options for angles of attack with an entirely land-based army. So I guess that is another strike against my map.

 

[phryxolydian]

You've gone to Construction before Philosophy. If not doing CB rush or playing Inca, there is no reason to do this

If it were me I'd really welcome such brutal honesty to critique my play, perhaps you could drop by my thread?

Anyway, about the above, which deviations are OK to do, if you are not going for CB rushes? I mean, Philosophy won't really get you anywhere, if you can't get an immediate benefit for it, meaning, if you aren't sure to have all your libraries by the time you research Philosophy what techs are OK to research first?

 

[Iamteehee]

I think sailing for the trade route is the only other tech that you'll get an immediate benefit off, but it depends on when you will finish your libraries.

I'd still consider going for philosophy first, because researching a classical tech reduces the cost of ancient techs

 

[consentient]

Generally on Deity techs do not often present immediate benefits, but getting to Philosophy ASAP is still the best way of tech-ing quickly. When you DO go to Philosophy before Construction, Currency, or anything else you might be tempted by, you should build the rest of your early strategy around it - i.e. settling the cities, and getting them Granaries and Libraries in good time.

Although you may not be able to build NC as soon as you finish Philosophy, if you're doing well it will only be off by a few turns, and if you've grown your cap, and have decent production, and have stuck to 3 or 4 cities, it won't take long to build.

But I've always been of the view that for Domination, Liberty is strictly better because you get an army AND a NC around the same time as you get NC on Tradition. For fast Science and Cultural victories, sure Tradition still has the edge, but if you want to capture capitals, Liberty is better. Sometimes Honor is better than both, if you can get a broken Industrial unit-purchasing combo working full pace.

 

[vadalaz]

T142 DomV, 16 points

Spoiler :

Full liberty - Commerce to cheaper roads. Took a GS with Liberty finisher and bulbed Machinery. Didn't build the NC and never sent external trade routes except to CSs in the end, science from city pop and libraries was enough to get to Machinery in a good time.

Sweep order:
1st army - Vienna, Lisbon, London
2nd army - Addis Ababa, Marrakech, Istanbul - I was a bit slow to get this army up and running, should've skipped building aqueducts maybe
Built a small third army and then all three converged on Ulundi.

Spoiler Achievements :

CB Rush: had 6 CBs by T51, 4 points
Chu-Ko-Nu Rush: T94 Machinery, 3 points
The Silk Road: 9 cities, 1 point
Range: 6 range promoted CKNs, 1 point
People's Liberation Army: definitely over 20 CKNs, 3 points
Blitz: T142 victory, 4 points

 

[Blatc]

After mainly Science games the past while, it took a little while to remember how to play DomV. This is a replay with map knowledge.

Tech: ignored Philosophy, Sailing. Focused on Construction, Machinery, then Chivalry.

Social Policies: Full Liberty, 3 in Commerce

Did not build or buy any caravans

Religion: God King, did not found

CB Rush: Get 6 Composite Bowmen on (or before)
Turn 55 (4pts)
Early 50s

Chu-Ko-Nu Rush: Research Machinery on (or before)
Turn 90 (4pts)
Exactly turn 90; used Liberty finisher to GE Machu Picchu

The Silk Road: Connect X cities to your capital with roads
15 cities (3pts)
16 cities connected to capital

Range: Get X Chu-Ko-Nu with the Range promotion (can be upgraded)
no points, only 4

People's Liberation Army: Finish the game with X Chu-Ko-Nu (can be upgraded)
20 Chu-Ko-Nu (3pts)
23

Blitz: Win the game on (or before)
Turn 140 (5pts)

Total 19 points

 

[DanQuayle]

Congrats valadaz & Blatc on clearing the map with CKNs!
The NC (and Philosophy) now seem really superfluous if you are committed to clearing the map with CKNs. I remember in my game I could have built 3+ additional CBs instead of hard building the NC.

However Blatc, I am really impressed you were able to reach T90 Machinery with no caravans and no Liberty GS. How many cities (with no resistance ie providing science) did you have on T90?

 

[Blatc]

I would have had 4 cities contributing science, including 1 puppet, and caravans from the East; I delayed starting war with my 2nd/Eastern army until I hit Machinery. If they hadn't been sending me caravans, I would have used Liberty GS and actually hit Machinery slightly earlier.
Playing the start a couple times, I tried:
1) external caravans for science
2) internal caravans for food to capital (first 2) and NE expo (3rd caravan)
3) and finally 0 caravans and delaying pyramids until core of Western army was built
I approached this similar to the Illiterate strategy I've posted about previously, but including Writing, in that I identified techs and builds that weren't absolutely necessary and just ignored them. As I wrote, I didn't tech Sailing or Philosophy; I forgot to mention Bronze Working - I didn't have Iron until so far into the game that I didn't have trading partners anymore. I didn't build caravans or watermills; I held off on stone works and coliseums until I had 2 armies up and running.

I think I built NC on the DCL 16 map, which I cleared completely with CKN (minus CS).

 

[tarafran]

Great game .
I went liberty then Honor .
missed the last religion, .
I also waited to long for Vienna to build and armory as her religion was getting me unit with faith
By the time I was ready to spam units i had a new religion
Shaka had wiped Marocco and Sully ,I met his army in London that I took with Chuks.
Declared War in the same turn when I saw him trying to steel land with a GG .
Got artillery few turn later ...
20 cities 3pts
14 Chuk finish 1 pts
11 fully upgraded Chuks 2 puts
got my 6 bowman late around 70 1 pt
got to machinery on 103 2 pts