Comprehensive Leader Guide: Justinian

noto

Warlord
Joined
Apr 4, 2004
Messages
238
First off, thanks to Molybdeus for starting this trend with his guide to Pacal. I hope people will start up a list of guides for Civ leaders and perhaps it will eventually be compiled into the War Academy. I have owned Civ 4 for...jeez, I forget how long now. I really love playing with leaders like Lizzie and Julius Ceasar but for the last month or so I have been playing only with leaders that I am less familiar with. It makes the game more interesting and challenging again. One leader I've been playing with for the last week or so is Justinian.

Spiritual
The spiritual trait allows you to switch civics the moment you gain access to them without falling behind. There are usually some civics that are almost always worth switching to, such as slavery, monarchy, caste system, organized religion, and vassalage. Add it up and you're looking at several turns of anarchy, not counting each time you need to switch religions. The spiritual trait will, in this way, keep you from falling behind a faster researching civ in the early game. The spiritual trait, however, really shines in the mid to late game. You can run bureaucracy and org religion and build some infrastructure, and then vassalage and theo to build an army, for example. While at peace you can run rep for the science boost and then switch to police state when the WW is eating you alive. Another use of the spiritual trait is for diplomacy: you can switch your state religion to make a quick tech trade or two or convince one civ to war against another, only to switch back 4 turns later.
Imperialistic
Some of you may remember when I started a thread a few weeks ago about how this trait sucks. Since then I have somewhat changed my mind. Aggressive is great for early warfare, but does nothing for naval units, air units, archery, mounted, armoured, seige...etc. You aren't always going to be relying on melee or gunpowder units and in many games you may indeed want cavalry to be the backbone of your army up until tanks. The exp boost provided by a GG applies to all units. The faster settler production helps you grab good city spots first (and this has synergy with Justinian, which I will discuss later). One thing about imperialist is that you can only benefit from the GG's if you are actually fighting. Therefore, I am going to propose something a little radical. When playing an imperialistic civ, it may make sense to, just for the hell of it, declare war on a neighbour with no intention of even invading his/her land. Why not pick a rival civ that is running ahead of you in tech and declare war on them, and then sit back and fight a defensive war? This will accomplish many things. First off, since you are defending, you have an advantage, and should be able to win most battles, thus whittling away his military while maintaining your own. You will therefore keep his power rating in check and, more importantly, slow down his research. The real reason you are doing this, however, is to pop those GG's. You are basically using your rival to give you GG's and then you can settle them in your cities, giving you an exp boost. Since the fighting is taking place in your borders you will suffer no war weariness and your rival will. Keep in mind, if you are strong enough to actually beat him in a war then just do that, this defensive war tactic is merely a strategy I have thought of to exploit the imperialistic trait even when I am too weak to conquer a neighbouring civ. And now, on to Justinian specifically.

Justian of the Byzantines



Spiritual and Imperialistic
Starts with Mysticism and The Wheel

UU: Cataphract: a 12 strength knight
UB: Hippodrome: a theatre that grants 2 happy faces per 10% slider and 1 extra happy face with access to horses.


So Justinian has an easy time raising his happiness cap and can command an extremely powerful knight. What are some strategic options?

Early Game

Justinian is a warmonger and shouldn't chase after wonders. That said, the two best wonders for him are right at the beginning of the game: the Oracle and the Great Wall. This is rather annoying as there are so many things for you to be doing at that point in the game. If you go for Polytheism you have no worker techs. I would say look at your starting position and decide which path to take. You can go for Hinduism and the Oracle if you have marble and/or a commerce tile to work right away (to research polytheism first). If you have a good hammer start and/or stone, the Great Wall would be a better choice. Personally, I think the Great Wall is probably more important for Justinian than Hinduism. You can found other religions throughout the game quite easily and can capture holy cities with your military. The Great Wall will help Justinian in two ways: exploiting his imperialistic trait and giving him a Gspy or two (and he relies on espionage heavily in the late game). Therefore, I recommend going for the GW. Also, by grabbing bronze working you can have something for your worker to do. If you start with marble or stone in your BFC you could build a worker first for road building. Another option would be to get agriculture and animal husbandry. First, it allows you to develop your land and, second, Justinian REALLY REALLY REALLY needs horses!!! He needs them for both his UU and UB. Find those horses and hook them up at all costs. If you don't have horses your first war should have the primary aim of capturing a city with horses...I'm not even kidding. And so that is the early game.

Now let's look at the Economy:
Since he starts with mysticism, trying to found an early religion is very possible. He is neither philosophical nor financial nor industrial and thus will not have an economy boosted by financial cottages or pyramid specialists or even quick great people. Justinian, for the first half of the game, will get the gold necessary to run his empire from religious shrines. It is quite doable to grab 2 or 3 religions fairly early on, by going for polytheism right away, and then monotheism shortly thereafter, followed by writing, and a beeline to code of laws. Of course, you will need to research other techs during this time as well, which is why I said you can found 2 OR 3. 3 if you're lucky and playing on Prince, probably only 2 if playing on monarch or higher. You should think about building the oracle. It is not out of the way for you, Justinian, since you are researching religious techs anyway. It is a cheap wonder and possible to build even lacking marble or the industrial trait, so long as you have a city with decent production and/or forests. The oracle will help you get a great prophet to build those shrines. I have built stonehenge with him but I find it only marginally useful. Stonehenge is a very strong wonder for charismatic civs or civs that need a great prophet but can't afford to detour to the oracle. Justinian doesn't really need stonehenge, however, and would probably be better off using that early production to pump out some more settlers (taking advantage of the imperialistic trait). Take advantage of the fast settlers and grab a few early cities, one or two being high hammer cities and one or two being high food cities. Religion will pop your borders for you and help with the happy cap, and an early shrine will help you pay for those cities.

So Justinian can get a large empire going and pay for it by founding two or three religions and building one or two shrines, spamming his religions to his cities and to AI cities. Code of laws not only grants a religion but allows him to run specialists and that is why grabbing high food cities early on is important. You'll need them for scientists and merchants. Since he is a religion whore you should be able to get at least one or two AIs to adopt one of your founded religions, providing you with further coinage. In fact, Justinian seems to never have problems producing gold, it's beaker production that is a challenge for him. One way you can try to compensate for this is if you have several relgions you can build many monastaries. Remember that each monastary grants a 10% bonus to science output. That adds up.
Once code of laws has been researched, it's already time to start thinking about beelining for guilds. This, of course, will let you build the cataphracts and grocers. Grocers are important for Justinian, who has little worries about happiness but needs health, and a grocer in his shrine cities will really pay off. Ironically, since he researches through the monarchy path and has all those religions, the hippodrome isn't even that much of a concern right away. It is infinitely useful, however, for dealing with WW and will be very important when switching out of hereditary rule later in the game.

What about his military?
At some point in the early game, while you are setting up all those religions, you will need to be building up a military. This is why I recommended grabbing a couple of high hammer cities right from the get-go. Because Justinian is focusing on founding religions early on and spamming missionaries, you cannot do this and at the same time rush your enemies with axes. The Byzantines do not have an ancient or classic age UU. Justinian can pull off an axe rush as well as anyone else, and by all means you should go ahead and do this given the chance. If you have horses it might be worthwhile to actually try and fight an early war with horse archers. They can later be upgraded to cataphracts and you will need horseback riding eventually anyway.
Remember my schpeal about a defensive war? Even if you aren't strong enough to fully conquer one of your rivals, you may want to to declare war anyway, just to give your units some target practise. This is especially true of your mounted units. Horse archers aren't the best units for taking cities as they cannot receive the city raider promotion, but they shine in the field. The only units that can take them on in the field are spearmen and swordmen, and swordmen are probably still at a disadvantage. If you find yourself with horses but no copper or iron, at least fight a defensive war for the purpose of promoting your mounted army. You can do many other things with horse archers too, such as crippling your neighbour by stealing his workers and pillaging his land. What I like to do with Justinian is grab HBR fairly early and spam HA units with a few axemen to counter spears. If I can't take enemy cities easily I will pillage/worker steal and then sit back and wait for him to cross into my borders so i can pop GGs. This will really slow down my rival so that later on when i get catapults I can take his cities with greater ease.
Finally, once you are confident that your economy can stand on its own two feet (you have code of laws for merchants and scientists and have currency), you should be thinking about going for guilds. As stated before, the grocer is super important for Justinian as happiness is abundant for him but health is not, and the grocer will pay hansomely in shrine cities.
Whether you go for guilds or engineering first is up to you, and they have similar tech paths, but I usually go for guilds first. Cataphracts + catapults is stronger than trebuchets + horse archers. So I rush to guilds. Once you have cataphracts, the game becomes very interesting. Cataphracts make short work of longbows and macemen, and can even hold their own against pikes, especially if you give them the shock promotion. Enemy cities will fall quickly to your cataphracts. Don't forget to bring some axes to deal with pikes (as you probably won't have macemen if you have followed my beeline example) and some longbows to defend enemy cities once they are yours. Also, don't forget that the cataphract is a mounted unit. Take advantage of the two movement points. Run deep into enemy territory and pillage strategic resources such as copper and iron. Also, remember the cataphract gets a flanking attack against catapults and trebuchets, should the enemy try to use any. You should be able to destroy most enemy seige units before they can even be used against you. This will help protect your stacks and help you in those defensive wars.

Later Game
After you have conquered a massive empire, you will probably want representation for the science boost and then biology for more specialists. The hippodrome takes care of the happiness side of caps and thus health resources are extremely important for you. Trade for them or take them by force. You will probably be running representation, bureaucracy, caste system, and state property.
You could, of course, run a cottage economy with Justinian, but I don't find that particularly useful for him. With him I like to have just 2 types of cities: food and hammers....and actually I often wind up having cities that are high in both. You'll want to make a super money city - with a shrine or two, a wallstreet, and tons of merchants. You'll also have several scientist cities. In the early game you'll run a lot of priests to get those prophets and shrines, but they aren't as important later on. Then you'll have hammer towns with workshops and watermills. Caste system and SP make those workshops amazing, and watermills will give you food and hammers under SP. So I usually run a specialist and hammer economy with Justinian. I will admit that beakers are difficult to come by. The reason is that Justinian will not get the pyramids (unless you have stone right away) and he his not philosophical...plus your first 2 or 3 GP are going to be prophets anyway. One solution to this is to run a lot of spy specialists later on in the game and if you are the first to state property you can use your Gspy to build a scotland yard and thus a super spy city. You can then use the espionage points to steal techs from your more advanced foes. One thing that sucks about beelining to state property is that scientific method, on the way, obsoletes your monastaries. Given that, I would recommend even changing some of your scientists to spies. Monastaries are really the only way Justinian can even hope to keep up in tech. Without them your scientists are less useful. Also, everyone by now knows that you get more bang for your buck using espionage for techs anyway. A spy gives you, what, 4 esp points? The two spy buildings raise your esp output by 100% making each spy give you 8 points, and a scientist only gives you 3, plus a 50% boost from the library and uni makes it 4.5. (don't count representation as that will boost spies as well as scientists). The espionage points required to steal a tech are also less than the beakers required to research it (so I've been told) and thus you can get more out of spy specialists than scientists later in the game. You can then achieve tech parity. The only disadvantage to this is that you will have to rely on the AIs to research techs, not being very good at researching them yourself.

Summary
Justinian is a warmonger, no doubt about it. Focus on your military, particularly your cavalry. Wonders are a low priority, besides, he can take them by force. Two wonders that make sense for Justinian are the Oracle and particularly the Great Wall. The GW will let him REX without worrying about barbs, pop more GGs, and help him in his spy game. He can found religions and has a super-happiness producing UB and thus health is the greater concern for him - find health resources or take them by force. His economy is weak - you will need shrines for gold and monastaries for research or you will stagnate economically. I find beelining for code of laws (caste system) and then guilds is strong with him. Trade for backfills. Specialists and workshops/watermills work well with him - and so does State Property. Espionage is the only thing that will give you the ability to have tech parity in the late game - to play Justinian in the late game you must know how to use the espionage system. Good luck.
 
57 views and no feedback?? Surely someone has something to say about this. Comments? Criticism?
 
I've played Jusinian many times but always lacked behind. founding religons and a couple of shrines was the melody. I started to wonder what's wrong with my games, is it the map or what?

I'm a civil service freak, always beline it. Now i see anouther way to play him.
thanx
 
A good guide, there are two things i would add:
1. I support your idea of defensive wars for GG-production. If you are going this way the Great Wall should be your priority number one, because it doubles your Great-General-Rate in your homelands. So try to grab a stone location with your fast imperialistic settler and go directly for masonry. This path does also fit well with founding judaism.
2. Justinian is a slightly worse leader for cultural victories allthough he is spiritual, which is generally good for these victory conditions. This is because you can not assign artists with the unique building in contrast to regular theatres. So artists without caste system are only possible in the Globe Theatre city. This is a big backdraw for cultural victories.
 
Thank you Hawe Hawe for reminding me, I was actually going to include a mention of the great wall but forgot to while I was writing it. Yes, the GW has synergy with any imperialistic leader and defensive wars will see oodles and oodles of GG's pop up.
 
Thanks for your efforts in putting together a guide.

57 views and no feedback?? Surely someone has something to say about this. Comments? Criticism?

Well ... I was one of the 57.

I won't labour this point (too much) as you may find it fickle, but I found the guide difficult to read because there was so much text without breaks. I've noticed that you have since edited it and addressed this to some extent. If nothing else, inserting a blank line between paragraphs will improve readability.

First off, thanks to Molybdeus for starting this trend. I hope people will start up a list of guides for Civ leaders and perhaps it will eventually be compiled into the War Academy.

Perhaps a link to Molybdeus' thread on Pacal? I had to search for it.

Unfortunately, I am too lazy to add graphics to this guide so it won't be as pretty as Molybdeus's.

It's a visual game - there's a great opportunity to support these guides with graphics, and more than simply a leader pic' too, especially when you're trying to explain a new concept.

Trait : Spiritual

Spiritual
The spiritual trait allows you to switch civics the moment you gain access to them without falling behind.

Kind of: No anarchy between civic or religion switches, although there is still a short delay for 'additional' civic switches, so 'say' you build The Pyramids, switch to Representation, then on the next turn discover Pacifism ... there's still a brief forced delay.

No mention of fast build Temples? Suitability for Cultural win? If chasing multiple religions thanks to Mysticism start + Spiritual trait how does an Angkor Wat strategy fit in?

Another use of the spiritual trait is for diplomacy: you can switch your state religion to make a quick tech trade or two or convince one civ to war against another, only to switch back 4 turns later.

This is a good point, although I'm just somewhat wary of basing a strategy on accepting a State religion, in case of negative relations with the 'Isabellas' and 'Charlemagnes' of the game (on the proviso that they're neighbours and running an alternative faith, especially in the very early game where it's likely that the Byzantine army could be quite low in power. Refer below re. starting technology distance from decent Ancient/Classical Age units).

Trait : Imperialistic

Imperialistic
Some of you may remember when I started a thread a few weeks ago about how this trait sucks. Since then I have somewhat changed my mind. Aggressive is great for early warfare, but does nothing for naval units, air units, archery, mounted, armoured, seige...etc. You aren't always going to be relying on melee or gunpowder units and in many games you may indeed want cavalry to be the backbone of your army up until tanks.

I'm not sure which trait you're referring to here (Aggressive or Imperialistic). You get fast build Barracks and Drydocks with the Aggressive trait.

Starting Technologies : Mysticism and The Wheel

So; no Hunting for Camps, no Agriculture for Farms, no Mining for Mines, no Fishing for Work Boats, while Bronze Working, Archery, and Animal Husbandry each require you to get at least one prerequisite to produce a defensive unit. Further to this, a strategy involving chasing Polytheism or Monotheism will push further back any Worker activity or getting Axes, Archers, or Chariots for Barbarian control. The Great Wall was mentioned, but its protection is not going to cover Settler parties protected only by Warrior(s).

The very early game therefore is pretty tricky - chopping out quick Imperialistic Settlers is going to take a bit of time if the first technologies are religious-based. How should the Byzantines address this, especially if there's a low-commerce start?

It also does beg a question about the practicality of 'inviting warfare' into your borders with the view to pop some Great Generals.

... Once code of laws has been researched, it's already time to start thinking about beelining for guilds ...

A focussed Guilds bee-line is reasonably tough to pull off. knightowl recommended that if pursuing this; the player should avoid Mathematics and use Great Merchants to lightbulb Currency through Alphabet, Metal Casting, and Monarchy. Metal Casting can often be picked up through The Oracle, but then you're looking at contaminating your Great Person pool with a Great Prophet influence. If you pop a Great Engineer through running a Specialist Engineer via Metal Casting's Forge, then you can bulb Machinery to hurry things along. He noted that one downside of avoiding Mathematics is that Construction remains out of reach (for Catapults). It was also noted by futurehermit that some of the other prerequisited technologies (such as Feudalism) as well as Guilds itself are pretty expensive to self-research.

carl_corey noted that you can leverage Justinian's Imperialistic's trait by popping a Great General and attaching it to a unit to 'Heroic Epic' status, but Aesthetics and Literature are a long way off the Guilds bee-line, and therefore possibly the player may need to consider trades (making The Great Library slightly tougher to access if Literature's being deferred for Guilds prerequisites).

Unconquered Sun did 'Justinian's University: Defeating the Deities' that might also be worth reviewing if not referencing.

Finally, another formatting thing, but a strong summary of key points would finish this better than your comment about your political science paper.

Anyway - hope all this is of some help. Thanks again for your effort.
 
Thanks, Cam H. I will implement changes you recommended, but it will take some time. First of all I need to learn how to use this forum...how to upload graphics and links. Now, about your comments on the content:
-yes, the early game is tricky. Contrary to what I wrote in my article, I often build stonehenge and I may change that. The reason is I pursue polytheism if I have a commerce tile to work at the start and thus, as you pointed out, there is simply nothing for a worker to do. You could, of course, start with an unorthodox build of a warrior and then a settler. What more experienced Civ players would probably tell me would be to build a worker and research a worker tech, abandoning any hope of Hinduism. This isn't such a bad situation since Justinian can take holy cities by force anyway.
Anyway, I just finished yet another game with him and I will edit my article soon based on that game. One thing I realized is the great wall is probably the most important wonder for him, it is possibly game-breaking. Justinian depends on esponiage in the late game and it synergizes with his REXing and the imperialist trait. Thanks for the feedback.
 
Since the fighting is taking place in your borders you will suffer no war weariness and your rival will.

That depends also how much casualties you take. So you can suffer WW when fighting on you own territory. I'm not 100% but almost.
 
That depends also how much casualties you take. So you can suffer WW when fighting on you own territory. I'm not 100% but almost.

That depends on the culture in the plot where the fight takes place. If it's 100% your culture (or Vassal) you will suffer no WW. If the plot is contested between you and the enemy, the WW will be divided according to cultural influnece ratio.

There might be another issues tho, i.E. your land getting pillaged.
 
Well, in any case, what I do with Just is build the GW and then basically constantly wage war. Let's say I'm sandwiched between Monty and Hatty. I'll gather my forces and take a city or two from Egypt and then Monty declares on me. What do I do? Well, rather than make peace with Egypt like I would in other games, I'll fight two wars at the same time, on the defence. This way I pop a zillion GGs and Hatty doesn't run away in tech. Then, when my military is strong enough I'll go take a city or two from Monty. Then I have to stop and regroup. Then I turn my attention back to Hatty and so do I make peace with Monty? Heavens no. I let him continue to invade my land with SoDs...I use cavalry (in the generic sense of the word = horseback soldier) and take out his seige units if I have to while fighting against Hatty. Basically what I'm saying is any rival Civ that has the potential to beat me economically will be declared on. This is regardless of whether or not I can actually take their cities. That way they slow down their tech and if they lose a billion troops in my territory, giving my army a billion promotions and popping a zillion GGs for me, all the better. Because of doing this, I've also become very good at defensive wars. I recently played a game where I had cataphracts and trebuchets up against cannons and riflemen. I let JC invade my land with cannons and rifles, and then I'd throw some cats and trebs to collateral damage his stack, and then throw my pinch promoted cataphracts at his stack. Sure, a lot of them died, but so did all of his cannons. Then, his rifles had no choice but to try and retreat, so I'd pick them off. My kill ratio was barely 1 to 1...but keep in mind that I was still winning this war because JC's war weariness soon ground his economy to a halt and it allowed me to catch up in tech.
 
Oh I should add that I had so many GGs that game that all my cataphracts were promoted to flanking 1 and 2, combat 1 and pinch, at least, if not more. That was how my odds of either winning or at least retreating were tolerable. I think cataphracts start with flanking 1...I seem to remember that.
 
Justinian is one of the best warmongers in the game. Spiritual is great - early on use theology at will, later switch to draft at will and back to bureaucracy.

From the mid game onwards Justinian should focus on food and health. He can generate near unlimited happiness to run big cities and ignore war weariness through use of the culture slider. In fact one of his most powerful capabilities is drafting. He can stack up a lot of draft unhappiness before it becomes an issue. Which equals insane production of rifles.

So turtle early with Great wall, run an SE with castesystem and farms. Accept wars - even invite them. Whip out defenders when you need to and then switch back. If you live next to an industrious neighbour, donate them your stone and let them build you the pyramids.

Go for heavy whipping when you get to guilds and expand further. Then turtle back and wait for rifles. Then draft an army to make the earth shake! Further teching may not be needed. But a constant production of EP to drop enemy defenses by running spy specialists is valuable - and nationalism helps that.
 
You are basically using your rival to give you GG's and then you can settle them in your cities, giving you an exp boost. Since the fighting is taking place in your borders you will suffer no war weariness and your rival will.
afaik you can benefit from war weariness advantage when the fight takes place within your cultural borders. needless to say this is a larger area compared to your national borders. it means that you can attack certain cities that are located close to your national borders without suffering that extra war weariness penalty. I might be making all these things up though. Im not sure :confused: (a little graphic to spice things up) :)

If I am correct than your enemy may not be having extra war weariness penalty either.
 
… And you'll end up having Cataphracts in the BCs !!!

Can you? :hmm:

The stone-based Byzantine Cataphract bee-line!

Can Justinian leverage a Stone-based start? I have looked at one possible strategy that is a deviation from noto's broader strategy outlined in the opening post (not focussed on The Pyramids).

The Pyramids and Three Cities

With Mysticism and The Wheel as starting technologies, you can get Masonry out of the blocks. By the time you’ve built your Worker he can move straight to the Stone, build a Quarry, and hook it up. The idea is to build The Pyramids in the capital while getting out a couple of Settlers to grab resources (incl. Horses).

Possible build order: Worker > Warrior x3 > The Pyramids (interrupt at happy cap) > Settler x2 > Worker > The Pyramids (resume)

Research the required ‘Worker technologies’ incl. Animal Husbandry, before Priesthood and Writing. Writing should come cheaply with all optional prerequisites of Pottery, Priesthood, and Animal Husbandry secured for a discount. Contingent upon timing, get a Library up in Constantinople relatively quickly and depending upon the commerce-orientation of the cities; Adrianople and Thessalonica. Be wary of the AI assigning Specialist Scientists in cities with Libraries when the population grows – consider turning on ‘emphasise food’ with the Governor off.

Chop out The Pyramids and replace Forests with Cottages or Farms depending upon Constantinple’s food haul. Representation (initially for the happiness more so than the flasks on specialists pre-CoL) and Slavery. Hereditary Rule alternately could work too for a while.

The Great Wall refund

After The Pyramids, build towards The Great Wall but take it off your build list one turn before completion. When another tribe builds it, you should get a refund of well over 100:gold: that you can use to ramp up the research rate for a while. Indeed, taking it off your build list will allow another city to repeat this process if there is the appropriate opportunity, but it is likely that there will be more important builds underway.

Metal Casting slingshot …

In one of Adrianople or Thessalonica, chop out The Oracle, and go for a Metal Casting slingshot. Metal Casting is important not only as a Machinery prerequisite, but also allows Constantinople to build a Forge for a Specialist Engineer and a bonus when ‘building Research’. The aim is to pop two Great Engineers, or less preferably, a Great Engineer and a Great Merchant. Do not run specialists in The Oracle city as you will have a contaminated Great Person pool with Great Prophet points and you want your Great People coming from Constantinople with its Great Engineer influence from The Pyramids.

… also opens the door for backfilling Guilds prerequisites.

At this stage you can assess your trading opportunities – Metal Casting for Alphabet may or may not be worth it, depending upon how close you are to Alphabet. Trading opportunities with the AI should typically include the key technologies of Monarchy and Iron Working, and you may want to pursue some cheap technologies including Hunting and Archery. If you’re fortunate, you may have a Horseback Riding trade on the table.

Technologies however to avoid include; Mathematics (Great Engineer will lightbulb Construction, Great Merchant will lightbulb Civil Service), and to a lesser extent; Fishing (Great Merchant will lightbulb Sailing).

Lightbulbing

From here you’ll be gradually building up Great Engineer points with your Specialist Engineer and The Pyramids in Constantinople. Technology-wise you’ll be after Code of Laws largely for The Caste System (Specialist Merchants) but you might also pick up Confucianism as ‘icing’.

The initial Great Engineer will bulb Machinery (or the bulk of it at least), and if somehow you are already researching it or have it, then he can be saved for Feudalism or Guilds.

One you have Code of Laws, you can look at ramping up the Great Person points with your Specialist Engineer supported by ‘unlimited’ Specialist Merchants. Ideally your second Great Person will be a Great Engineer, as they will contribute over two thirds of the research towards Guilds without the need for Currency, whereas the Great Merchant will lightbulb Currency over Guilds. If you can trade for Currency, then it’s a moot point.

So, if all goes to plan, you’ll have Guilds, Horseback Riding, Iron, and Horses all at your finger tips, and more to the point; a 12 strength two-move unit before most AI tribes have even thought about Longbows.

-- o0o --​

Expansion, Religion, Diplomacy

In the experiment game (below) I confined myself to building three cities, never adopted a State Religion, and traded liberally with the AI, including appeasing every demand from the more hostile leaders, and gifting quite a bit of technology along the way. This may or may not suit or be adequate for other games.

So … can it be done?

For the purposes of the exercise I re-rolled maps (Monarch level, Pangaea landmass) until I got an inland start with Stone. Monarch seems to be a good level for this - the AI won't be miles ahead or conversely behind in technology, allowing for some trading opportunities.



The game's attached if anyone wants to give it a shot.
Spoiler :
Constantinople was founded on the spot (although one West as it happens wasn’t too bad either). As outlined above, the Byzantines went straight for a Worker and Masonry with the view to hooking up the Stone as quickly as possible. Agriculture and Animal Husbandry were next in line, while I was to get some Warriors out for exploration and the city garrison of Constantinople.

Two strokes of good luck that I must confess to; saved six turns of research by popping Mining from a hut, and then got 85:gold: out of the next hut.

After 50 turns (2000BC) I had the Worker technologies I wanted, and was well underway to Priesthood for The Oracle.



I had also got two cities out – both as it happens near Horses. Adrianople was somewhat more food-rich, and I would later use it to run some Representation-supported specialists. There was a catch though – it was also settled near a (foodless) Gold Mine, and this would in itself slow population growth and ‘steal’ a specialist. Worth it? Of course!

Thessalonica became more of a production hub, and would be the city where I would try and nab The Oracle.



The first tribe I met was the Zulus, and in the distance I spotted Celtic apricot-coloured borders. To my south was Mali.

Over the coming years I found that I was sharing the world with this lot;



Great … two warmongers (both to my North) and two Industrious leaders :rolleyes:.

Justinian was however getting much closer to the target after 100 turns (375BC) with Iron Working and Monarchy picked up in trades, although had to self-research more technologies than had been hoped, including Alphabet, Horseback Riding, and Code of Laws. Confucianism was founded in Thessalonica. The Great Wall was turned on and off with one turn to go, and was built by Mali for a 138:gold: refund prior to Alphabet allowing 100%:science: for a while.

Generally though, all had pretty well gone according to plan. The Byzantines had not been attacked despite a ‘wafer thin’ defence. Regular checking for ‘hands full’ had not identified any war plans by any nearby tribe. The Pyramids had been bagged in Constantinople and The Oracle > Metal Casting in Thessalonica. A Great Engineer was popped, and he researched 1,034:science: of 1,046:science: of Machinery. There was no need to complete this early, and as such it was held off to avoid AI demands for it.

Shaka sat in ‘Cautious’ mode throughout, but thankfully it was Mansa who captured a Barbarian city to our north and therefore put a buffer between the Byzantine and Zulu empires (no close Zulu borders ‘sparking tensions’).

The world was relatively peaceful, despite the rival tribes being in a three way split of Hinduism, Judaism, and Buddhism. Justinian remained firmly in Paganism.





By 150BC some research had been put towards Guilds, but our second Great Person was about to pop … 58% Great Engineer, 42% Great Merchant. As we hadn’t acquired Currency, and the AI hadn’t either despite every tribe that was lacking Alphabet being gifted it some time back, it was hoped that a Great Engineer would be rolled out in 125BC …



As it happened, the lightbulb drew us one turn shy of Guilds, but by 100BC the target of being capable of building Cataphracts was achieved;



So, a lot went right here: I was never attacked although I did a lot of kowtowing to avoid war, I got both the Wonders I was after despite there being two Industrious leaders, and both Iron and Horses were relatively readily available.

There were a few small hurdles too: I suffered a bit of a culture border war with Mansa, as Timbuktu took Thessalonica’s Cows and Adrianople’s Horses for much of the game thereby sapping some of the productivity out of those cities, I had to self-research a couple of technologies that normally would be easy trades, and annoyingly right at the end the Great Engineer didn’t get all of the remainder of Guilds and therefore I finished one turn slower than I had expected and therefore if I actually wanted to build a Cataphract by 25BC, I would have had to chop it out rather than rely on Constantinople’s natural hammer haul (or have pre-built the bulk of a Horse Archer). While I was pleased to get Iron in one of my cities’ fat-X’s, I had to knock over a developing Hamlet to get to it. All up though, minor irritations.

While I was reasonably happy with the experimental game, I'm sure better players could improve on my result.
I hope this is of interest and/or help. :)
 

Attachments

  • Justinian I BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave
    58.8 KB · Views: 235
thanks compadre! makes me wanna play Justin!
 
Well, Cam H, don't stop there! Don't tease us like that. Tell us what you did with those glorious cataphracts!
 
:lol: ... I've left it hanging on a knife edge.

It was really just an exercise to see if the Byzantines could (even with my severe lack of care in micromanagement!) achieve kniteowl's suggestion that getting to Cataphracts in the 'BCs' was possible (as per the linked thread with some good thoughts from many incl. bovinespy, SickCycle, and carl_corey).

I'm also mindful that this is your guideline thread, not a demonstration game thread, so I served up post #14 really as an alternative strategic option for Byzantine leaders setting out theory and practice. I hoped to supplement your own guideline with 'an added extra'.

It really wasn't an especially good game as such - I made a lot of technology trades (and gifts) that I would probably not have normally done just to push along the technology rate so I could hopefully reach the 25BC deadline. I stuck with only three cities, and had an abysmal military - again something that I'd have avoided under normal playing conditions (where instead De Gaulle probably would have been 'Sword rushed')! As noted, there are better players who may have / be able to have achieved the target much earlier than my humble self.

Perhaps woth noting Darrell's observation from his report of Epic XIII;

darrelljs said:
The critical element has to be the Cataphract. What an amazing UU, I'm going to say it is on par with the Praetorian. While the Praetorian has a 25% boost to base strength vs. 20% for the Cataphract, this is mitigated somewhat by the fact that you have to pay a 12.5% hammer premium for the Praetorian. They both rule the field of battle for a long time. In fact, the Praetorian is vulnerable to shock Elephants, whereas the Cataphract has no peer at all. It is a mounted unit so Combat II is easily obtained, giving it a strength of 14.4. A City Garrison II Longbowmen on a hill city with the full fortify bonus is 13.2. A Combat II Pike is also at 13.2 (a Formation Pike is 14.7, but then a Combat III Cataphract is 15.6 to keep the number of promotions the same). The best thing is that a focused run to Guilds is over a hundred turns earlier than Grenadiers in Warlords. Sure, a Protective opponent will slow things down a bit since unlike Grenadiers you can't take the Cover promotion, and unlike Knights you lack immunity to first strikes. You'd need to soften 'em up with some artillery, but that's true for pretty much everyone against a Protective leader.
 
So if I am to understand correctly, your strategy suggestion differs from mine in that you did not attempt to build a religion economy. I did mention beelining to guilds too, but I really doubt I made it there in the BCs. I probably spend more time grabbing religions and building monastaries/shrines than you. Still...how did you run your economy in that game? Did you cottage or use specialists or convert hammers? I'm wondering about your strategy and whether or not I'd be able to use my cataphracts that early. Sure, you proved that you could get them very early but would your economy have allowed you to capture enemy cities at that point or would you have had to just raze? Then again...perhaps you have a point. Perhaps grabbing a bunch of religions should be left to leaders such as Sal or Ram...maybe Justinian should focus even more on warfare.
 
So if I am to understand correctly, your strategy suggestion differs from mine in that you did not attempt to build a religion economy.

I should say that it's not really my strategy, but for the purposes of this thread 'yes' - there was no attempt to found a religion although with my chase for Code of Laws I picked up Confucianism.

Certainly if you're prepared to compromise the bee-line a little ...

... then Hinduism and Judaism should be in the realms of being founded by Justinian with Polytheism > Masonry > Monotheism ...

... or you can take a shot at Buddhism as you'll want Meditation for the Monasteries.

Either Meditation or Polytheism are required for Priesthood, which you'll want for The Oracle slingshot - in my game's case; Metal Casting.

I didn't pursue this because I didn't especially want to adopt a State religion that would create diplomatic tensions, but more to the point I wanted Agriculture (Corn) and Animal Husbandry (Cows + locate Horses) to push along Constantinople's population to the happy cap. I acknowledge that even with no State religion, the presence of a religion does provide culture. Again, building Shrines wasn't part of the plan either - I was after Great Engineers for lightbulbing.

I did mention beelining to guilds too, but I really doubt I made it there in the BCs.

'Yes' you did mention it, and I agree that it appears to be a strong play - at least worth considering. The securing of Cataphracts "in the BCs" was as much experiment as anything ... still getting a more impressive empire than that in my experiemental game and turning them out from 400AD could well be one way to go.

Still...how did you run your economy in that game? Did you cottage or use specialists or convert hammers? I'm wondering about your strategy and whether or not I'd be able to use my cataphracts that early. Sure, you proved that you could get them very early but would your economy have allowed you to capture enemy cities at that point or would you have had to just raze?

As noted in the spoiler, my second goodie hut popped me 85:gold:, which helped fund the expansion of the two other cities. Adrianople, when it had a border pop, captured a Gold resource, while Constantinople was running with three Cottages. The payout from The Great Wall of 138:gold: kept things humming along for a while longer. Once I got Code of Laws I was running several Specialist Merchants out of Constantinople and Adrianople.

On the 100BC turn I was running at 100%:science: (98:gold: - 1:gold:/turn) with a combination of Cottages (now Villages) in Constantinople, Specialist Merchants (3 in Adrianople, 1 in Constantinople {along with the Specialist Engineer}), and the Gold Mine keeping costs covered and research respectable. Three close cities in Monarch isn't overly expensive.

Had I played on, with Code of Laws researched and 5 just turns off Currency, I would have no problem in expansion and keeping cities - indeed, I'd have wanted to take about eight cities and possibly after Forges, Barracks, Stables and Courthouses, have them just churning out Cataphracts for a Pangaea sweep ... but that's just speculation.

Perhaps grabbing a bunch of religions should be left to leaders such as Sal or Ram...maybe Justinian should focus even more on warfare.

As per above, a less hardline approach could see Justinian found Hinduism, Judaism, and Confucianism without straying too far off the Guilds bee-line, Taoism too was within striking distance (Meditation + CoL), and with some trading to get Theology even Divine Right is a possibility ...

... but I'd really have to question whether it's worth founding five or so religions. Many players would say that you're just far better off capturing Holy Cities.

As with all things Civ - it's a lot to do with circumstance, and a lot to do with your goals, and a lot to do with which path you choose to take to reach those goals. :)
 
:lol: ... I've left it hanging on a knife edge.

It was really just an exercise to see if the Byzantines could (even with my severe lack of care in micromanagement!) achieve kniteowl's suggestion that getting to Cataphracts in the 'BCs' was possible (as per the linked thread with some good thoughts from many incl. bovinespy, SickCycle, and carl_corey).

I'm also mindful that this is your guideline thread, not a demonstration game thread, so I served up post #14 really as an alternative strategic option for Byzantine leaders setting out theory and practice. I hoped to supplement your own guideline with 'an added extra'.

It really wasn't an especially good game as such - I made a lot of technology trades (and gifts) that I would probably not have normally done just to push along the technology rate so I could hopefully reach the 25BC deadline. I stuck with only three cities, and had an abysmal military - again something that I'd have avoided under normal playing conditions (where instead De Gaulle probably would have been 'Sword rushed')! As noted, there are better players who may have / be able to have achieved the target much earlier than my humble self.

Perhaps woth noting Darrell's observation from his report of Epic XIII;

Flanking II grants first strike immunity, does it not?
 
Top Bottom