Computers Suck

[Tephros]

This is alluded to in old threads, but people seem to dislike you bringing up old threads, so I'll start a new one:

The technology, "Computers" in this game absolutely sucks. It's both unfair and unrealistic. If you don't have the wonders it obsoletes, it's a neutral stepping stone to robotics. If you do have one or more of those wonders, it's a major disadvantage to have computers.

This is unrealistic in that computers have allowed us to do many things that would otherwise have been impossible or impractical. It's also unrealistic that you can win a space race victory without computers.

I'd suggest that computers should stay where they are in the tech tree, but should be required to launch the ship, and should give a +10% commerce bonus to all cities (i.e. works like bureaucracy does for commerce in your capital, except in all cities and only 10%). And there should be some kind of production bonus for robotics with factories and/or industrial parks.

 

[Joshua368]

Maybe your spaceship runs on knobs and levels with a mechanic pulley system and type-writen reports. It's certainly an odd quirk in the tech tree, though I would say the fact you can launch your ship without Flight is weirder.

As for obsoleting so much, yeah, it sucks when a tech does that and offers little in return. Though personally I'd say that Scientific Method is way worse in regards to this, it can be a literal loss of hundreds of beakers! Not to mention 9 great people points. (GL + Parth) Plus by the time Computers comes there's barely gonna be 15 more turns anyway.

 

[Cutlass]

My last game I was being out teched, but while my enemy pursued the rocketry line I beelined comps and built the internet and got 8 techs total before the game ended.

 

[Tephros]

Maybe your spaceship runs on knobs and levels with a mechanic pulley system and type-writen reports. It's certainly an odd quirk in the tech tree, though I would say the fact you can launch your ship without Flight is weirder.

As for obsoleting so much, yeah, it sucks when a tech does that and offers little in return. Though personally I'd say that Scientific Method is way worse in regards to this, it can be a literal loss of hundreds of beakers! Not to mention 9 great people points. (GL + Parth) Plus by the time Computers comes there's barely gonna be 15 more turns anyway.

Potentially worse, yes, but scientific method at least leads to techs that will greatly improve your economy: Biology, physics (for great scientist)
-->electricity, state property.

Computers is necessary only for robotics, which is not helpful for your economy, unless you need to fend off an invasion. I do think scientific method should add +15% research to universities or something.

 

[PureE]

Computers is necessary only for robotics, which is not helpful for your economy, unless you need to fend off an invasion. I do think scientific method should add +15% research to universities or something.

I only play with conquest and diplo vics on, so I wouldn't know about the space race, but those little screens are invaluable to your army. So unless you're going to win in the next 10 to 15 turns, you gotta have it or those advanced weapons are going to roll all over you. Next to that, by resigning computers you're never going to able to use force on your opponents. You're giving up one hell of a means to say "no" to a troublesome civ.

 

[Mesodius]

Computer allows me to use my dreaded Modern Armour to roll over everything in my path. Especially true when I have Space victory turned off.

 

[champ82]

1.) The internet is amazing. I always build it. It allows me to drop down my science and beef up my espinoage, which is important for space race. I neglect a lot of techs and get them with internet. I find it astonishing that someone could overlook it's power. Just goes to show how many approaches this game allots for.

2.) Robotics requries computers. Mech Infantry is the best base defensive unit. They can also be used to invade cities that have infantry and anti-tanks defending them.

 

[Tephros]

Hmm, the last time I built the internet it was to prevent a rival from getting my techs. At that point in the game I normally have a tech lead or have tech parity. I have never used mechanized infantry in a domination victory. I always win first. I very occassionally have modern armor near the end. And have never had stealth in any game. The only constant in my games is marathon speed and huge size. Emperor or immortal difficulty.

The internet is there, sure, but suggests that only a nation lagging in technology can benefit from computers. Computers should benefit the whole economy.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Internet and ability to build MA should be enough. It's a late game tech and likely hard to balance.

Space ships without computers is reasonably plausible. If one had the right materials and knowledge of physics, they could easily create space-worthy craft. The computers we had before satellites/apollo program in actual history were very weak/minimal anyway. Certainly having them would make craft more sophisticated, but we've probably had the technology to keep people alive on other celestial bodies for some time now ---> it's just not cost-effective to have people live on mars...there's no need and the resource constraints would be quite large at first. Of course, we've got nothing in terms of ability to send humans outside this system within a life time, but just creating equipment that would allow survivability on a rocky surface with solar access is pretty doable I'd imagine.

 

[mrt144]

Internet and ability to build MA should be enough. It's a late game tech and likely hard to balance.

Space ships without computers is reasonably plausible. If one had the right materials and knowledge of physics, they could easily create space-worthy craft. The computers we had before satellites/apollo program in actual history were very weak/minimal anyway. Certainly having them would make craft more sophisticated, but we've probably had the technology to keep people alive on other celestial bodies for some time now ---> it's just not cost-effective to have people live on mars...there's no need and the resource constraints would be quite large at first. Of course, we've got nothing in terms of ability to send humans outside this system within a life time, but just creating equipment that would allow survivability on a rocky surface with solar access is pretty doable I'd imagine.

we are talking about interstellar space travel with cryogenic chambers, fusion propulsion, etc etc, all without computer control. I think thats a stretch and a half.

 

[Roller123]

we are talking about interstellar space travel with cryogenic chambers, fusion propulsion, etc etc, all without computer control. I think thats a stretch and a half.

Not really. Using computers may be even a disadvantage, as they are more affected by things like radiation and electromagnetic interferences. And there will be alot of this stuff up there with no protection from Earth and all(like 10km of atmosphere). Provided no fuel restrictions, we know the destination, maintain communication with home base, always know our position, cannot drift away, fly in a straight line, Columbus had it more difficult. Computers would make the life easier sure, but i doubt they are a requirement.

 

[Justin Somnios]

Spaceships without computers? Sounds like Civilization: Steampunk Edition.

 

[eren1207]

just imagine solving the problem of obtaining a fusion engine without using computers...

 

[jollycynic]

scientific method should grant a research discount if your next tech picked is the "logical" next step in a research path, the logic being that you are building on a foundation of existing inquiry

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Not really. Using computers may be even a disadvantage, as they are more affected by things like radiation and electromagnetic interferences. And there will be alot of this stuff up there with no protection from Earth and all(like 10km of atmosphere). Provided no fuel restrictions, we know the destination, maintain communication with home base, always know our position, cannot drift away, fly in a straight line, Columbus had it more difficult. Computers would make the life easier sure, but i doubt they are a requirement.

In civ IV, you can build apollo w/o computers. You can not launch the ship without computers. You need that tech directly for a part (at least in BTS).

 

[Joshua368]

In civ IV, you can build apollo w/o computers. You can not launch the ship without computers. You need that tech directly for a part (at least in BTS).

I've launched the ship without computers before. You can take the Laser route instead.

 

[Roller123]

In civ IV, you can build apollo w/o computers. You can not launch the ship without computers. You need that tech directly for a part (at least in BTS).

Which one, the space elevator? Generally though i feel that "Computers" as in Civ4 description is far too general. Could be just about everything. Nor was really invented as a specific device or feature. Now Transistors we are talking. Is a tech, shapes today's computers and also definitely not being a requirement for pretty much anything just like in the game.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I've launched the ship without computers before. You can take the Laser route instead.

Ooooh, I never thought of doing that. Shows I don't go for space much.

Still, rare is the time you'd actually go that route heh.

Don't know then...it's a screwup or computers as a tech just indicates a certain mastery of them. They should probably be a bottle-neck pre-req at some point for realism, but fireaxis (wisely, for a change) didn't do that for flavor/balance.

 

[Joshua368]

Ooooh, I never thought of doing that. Shows I don't go for space much.

Still, rare is the time you'd actually go that route heh.

Not really, unless you're in danger of being invaded (robotics for mech infantry) or really want the Internet. In single player when you're cruising into a peaceful win with diplomacy all wrapped up, this can be fairly common.

When it comes to actually building spaceship parts, the only reason you'd need computers to is get to Fiber Optics (cockpit) and then Fusion (engine). It also leads to Superconductors (thrusters, labs) but it's much better to take the Refridgeration route instead. But Laser leads to Fiber Optics just as well and doesn't obsolete anything... it requires Satellites to research but that's a space race tech so that doesn't matter. In actual beaker costs, Laser is slightly more expensive but the difference is marginal.
Edit: Just checked. Laser costs 500 more beakers on normal speed. At a point where you're making over 3000 beakers per turn, this is irrelevant.

I mean usually I'll take Computer just because its slightly cheaper, and because the Internet has a cool wonder movie. But if I'm still using the spiral minaret and university of sankore by that point... then yes, I'll completely skip it. Taking the Laser route won't actually slow down your space race in any way. And if the AI is showing off its armada of nukes to someone else (which has happened before!) you'll want that SDI asap.

Yeah, a third of my wins are space. I keep them interesting by trying to pull them off as early as possible... so close to pre-1800 space win once, launched around 1780's but it took slightly too long to reach the destination. I like building the big expensive ship and moving through the late tech tree!

 

[Supr49er]

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