Concerns with Storyline / Victory conditions

[Wodan]

Okay, so here's my biggest objection with BE.

Not gameplay or UI. So if you're looking for that, that's another thread.

It's the storyline/VCs. So in this thread I'm going to try to get my thoughts down, starting with the Contact victory. Feel free to tell me I'm full of it or to join the discussion.

Contact victory

(1) First off, can you imagine any large group of humans working their butts off to give 100% of the fruits of their labor in an effort to contact space aliens? Maybe a couple dozen folks living on some Texas farm or California commune. But that type has deeper issues and questionable judgment evidenced by low priority assigned to things such as bathing and personal grooming, let alone their outlook on life. And, when you consider from a couple dozen to hundreds of thousands/millions of people, there's no chance of such opinions carrying the majority. The mere fact of dealing with such huge numbers (in today's world) is how we can find just a couple of dozen to use as example (the "Heaven's Gate" cult), showing that 0.00001% of any group are fringe lunatics. But the entire society? No way.

Sure, there's religion. But in BE constructing a subspace radio beacon isn't because they think the aliens are God. It's because they think the aliens are like us, only more advanced, and altruists. And, for some reason these aliens are willing and able to sweep in and save us from ourselves.

(2) Which brings me to my second point. On what basis are these aliens presumed to be benevolent? Really? Maybe they're Predator aliens. Or maybe they're simply busy with their own issues and concerns. Aliens have lives too. If the aliens sent an envoy, would we listen to him? Maybe a bit, but after the uproar died down, humans being humans, we'd keep on with what we were doing. So, the only way this makes sense is if the aliens sent in a huge effort and basically pacified our entire race. Again, why would they bother?

(3) Segue to the third point. Okay, so we're asking space aliens to sweep in and pacify us? Another word for that is slavery. And what then? They do this just because they're nice guys (back to the benevolent point). Or so they get something out of the deal? Make us do their menial jobs, perhaps? (Whatever aliens find menial.) Or, make us fight their wars for them. (They're benevolent, after all, so it's not a stretch for them to simply not be warlike at all either in constitution or emotional makeup.) Humans would make terrific mercenaries. But then what's in it for us? We'd simply trade fighting each other to fighting some 3rd race, really nasty high tech aliens.

(4) Fourth point is the Risk Assessment. If any of the above are wrong, then we just doomed the entire human race. Like us or not: with our tendencies to bicker and fight amongst ourselves, and our ability to F up our own governments in multiple ways (inability to compromise, interjection of religion, or what have you); we're muddling through and I have hope for the future. The Risk of summoning space aliens is pretty high that it turns out Bad in a number of possible ways.

Bottom line, I don't see humans doing it, I don't see the aliens doing it, and if I happen to be wrong on both points, chances are that it would turn out Very Bad, and if it didn't, most scenarios just have different pros/cons without any obvious benefit for us as a species. The odds that everything would work out and the aliens would sweep in and make the human race grow up and mature? Pretty slim.

 

[Lord Tirian]

The Contact victory is pretty much lifted from... well Contact (the film). For how the victory ends the game, I think it's ending the game the same way a Cultural or Science victory ends the game in Civ5 - your faction becomes dominant and ushers in a new era of human understanding. With aliens at hand, humanity starts to overlook their petty differences. They don't have to swoop in and do everything in a military fashion - think Star Trek, think optimistic, think that not being alone in the universe changes people's outlook!

And The Signal is, according to the pedia, a plan of the beacon, so it's pretty much a friendly invitation - so it stands to reason that the aliens are rather friendly. If they weren't, they could've just left automated weapons or just scorched the surface of the planet.

Civ:BE deliberately draws upon the more optimistic sci-fi works in the past, when people put friendly greetings with star maps on our probes and when we started SETI programmes.

It works in-game, too: I mean during space race, during the years when we sent out Voyager probes and so on, if we received a friendly signal with plans? We might have done it. If you disagree? Well, wipe out this dangerous deluded faction!

 

[traius]

Okay, so here's my biggest objection with BE.

Not gameplay or UI. So if you're looking for that, that's another thread.

It's the storyline/VCs. So in this thread I'm going to try to get my thoughts down, starting with the Contact victory. Feel free to tell me I'm full of it or to join the discussion.

Contact victory

(1) First off, can you imagine any large group of humans working their butts off to give 100% of the fruits of their labor in an effort to contact space aliens? Maybe a couple dozen folks living on some Texas farm or California commune. But that type has deeper issues and questionable judgment evidenced by low priority assigned to things such as bathing and personal grooming, let alone their outlook on life. And, when you consider from a couple dozen to hundreds of thousands/millions of people, there's no chance of such opinions carrying the majority. The mere fact of dealing with such huge numbers (in today's world) is how we can find just a couple of dozen to use as example (the "Heaven's Gate" cult), showing that 0.00001% of any group are fringe lunatics. But the entire society? No way.

The people of BE live on a planet of hostile aliens. Such a thing might drastically change the number of people who believe in aliens .

As for contacting others, they might. The already know aliens exist, and the first ones they met were dangerous at first but potentially not so bad given the right play-through. Maybe they'd like to contact others?

But I will say the notion of committing a lot of resources to contacting aliens when there are aliens a stones-throw away is a little weird. It doesn't really make sense that there is contact AND the harmony ending, in my opinion.

 

[Ryoga]

(1) First off, can you imagine any large group of humans working their butts off to give 100% of the fruits of their labor in an effort to contact space aliens? Maybe a couple dozen folks living on some Texas farm or California commune. But that type has deeper issues and questionable judgment evidenced by low priority assigned to things such as bathing and personal grooming, let alone their outlook on life. And, when you consider from a couple dozen to hundreds of thousands/millions of people, there's no chance of such opinions carrying the majority. The mere fact of dealing with such huge numbers (in today's world) is how we can find just a couple of dozen to use as example (the "Heaven's Gate" cult), showing that 0.00001% of any group are fringe lunatics. But the entire society? No way.

Sure, there's religion. But in BE constructing a subspace radio beacon isn't because they think the aliens are God. It's because they think the aliens are like us, only more advanced, and altruists. And, for some reason these aliens are willing and able to sweep in and save us from ourselves.

Are you mixing up UFO conspiracy theorists with scientists looking for life in other planets?

We have already spent billions for scanning radio signals from space. Of course part of the reason is to study space itself, but when you are looking for radio signals you are mostly looking for artificial ones.

There's the SETI program. And then there are several radio signal observatories around the world, the biggest one being the Arecibo Observatory

And this is just in the off chance that some advanced alien civilization exists in our galaxy. Can you imagine how much bigger would be the invested funds if aliens were known to exist?

Consider also that the victory condition does not imply that you are giving 100% of your labor and energy for the beacon, you are just giving the surplus you are making. All those things that require maintenance keep working as usual.

 

[Lord Tirian]

But I will say the notion of committing a lot of resources to contacting aliens when there are aliens a stones-throw away is a little weird. It doesn't really make sense that there is contact AND the harmony ending, in my opinion.

The aliens on the planet are dumb bugs though, while the contact victory aliens left you a message and plans for the beacon - that implies intelligence and technological prowess.

Very, very different.

 

[GenyaArikado]

Well unlike us, the civilizations on Beyond Earth actually find alien ruins. So its not really a fair comparison.

They might have not been friendly. But if that hasnt stopped US in real life i dont see why would that stop them.

 

[tesb]

The aliens on the planet are dumb bugs though

yeah i don't like the leaders either.

in all seriousness why do we consider the indigenous life of the planet aliens? what are the humans then?

 

[Ryoga]

yeah i don't like the leaders either.

in all seriousness why do we consider the indigenous life of the planet aliens? what are the humans then?

Yeah technically humans are aliens to these planets, however are the hostile bugs "indigenous" or "aliens"?

The fact that they are found in whatever planet you land paired with the fact that there are progenitor ruins scattered around could be a hint that they are actually as much aliens as the faction leaders.

Think about the "xenomorph" of the movie "Alien". There is no mistake, the Xenomorph wasn't native of the planet it was found in, hence: "alien".

 

[Wodan]

I don't disagree with most of the posts so far, or have any brilliant comments. I'll just respond to those where I have one or the other (or both!)

Are you mixing up UFO conspiracy theorists with scientists looking for life in other planets?

We have already spent billions for scanning radio signals from space. Of course part of the reason is to study space itself, but when you are looking for radio signals you are mostly looking for artificial ones.

There's a few scientists looking, and there's spending the majority of your GDP on a signal to a race which, frankly, has probably died off or transcended to another plane of existence or whatever. And is of unknown hostility.

And this is just in the off chance that some advanced alien civilization exists in our galaxy. Can you imagine how much bigger would be the invested funds if aliens were known to exist?

I can see it going either way. Again, depends greatly on their benevolence.

Us here on Earth looking? The hostile-alien folks would say that's prudent. Find out if they're there, so we can get ready to fight if we must.

Same thing would apply in spades if aliens were known to exist. Definitely would make for some lively debates in Congress. Again, the entire nation going whole hog for the idea? I don't buy it.

Consider also that the victory condition does not imply that you are giving 100% of your labor and energy for the beacon, you are just giving the surplus you are making. All those things that require maintenance keep working as usual.

A fair point but by that time of the game the surplus is a fair bit of change.

The fact that they are found in whatever planet you land paired with the fact that there are progenitor ruins scattered around could be a hint that they are actually as much aliens as the faction leaders.

I tend to think of each game as another alternate reality, rather than a series of expeditions in the same reality. Just me.

 

[Wodan]

The Contact victory is pretty much lifted from... well Contact (the film). For how the victory ends the game, I think it's ending the game the same way a Cultural or Science victory ends the game in Civ5 - your faction becomes dominant and ushers in a new era of human understanding. With aliens at hand, humanity starts to overlook their petty differences. They don't have to swoop in and do everything in a military fashion - think Star Trek, think optimistic, think that not being alone in the universe changes people's outlook!

And The Signal is, according to the pedia, a plan of the beacon, so it's pretty much a friendly invitation - so it stands to reason that the aliens are rather friendly. If they weren't, they could've just left automated weapons or just scorched the surface of the planet.

Civ:BE deliberately draws upon the more optimistic sci-fi works in the past, when people put friendly greetings with star maps on our probes and when we started SETI programmes.

It works in-game, too: I mean during space race, during the years when we sent out Voyager probes and so on, if we received a friendly signal with plans? We might have done it. If you disagree? Well, wipe out this dangerous deluded faction!

Yeah, I saw the movie, read Sagan, Clarke, etc. I've also read from E.E. "Doc" Smith and Heinlein (with violently antagonistic super-evolved aliens and BEMs) to David Weber (where the enemy is universally us / humans in all his worlds). Point is, hoping they're benevolent is basically blue-sky societal planning on a horrific scale.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

You aren't assuming they are super benevolent.
You are assuming they aren't actively malevolent. [ie that they can contact you without wanting to destroy you]

(and there might be some evidence of that in the signal you decode.. and the fact that their stuff is abandoned)

 

[Pietato]

This ending actually makes sense. You land on an alien world, find progenitor ruins and artifacts, then find plans for a contact device. Humanity makes contact and realises we better unite.

You basing it on present day Earth is ridiculous.

 

[Wodan]

The distinction about assuming not super benevolent vs not active malevolent is possibly a good one.

The point about basing on present day Earth is not... human nature will not change. On today of all days... with elections in the U.S. Looking back on the past several thousand years of recorded history... there is zero chance that human nature will change in the next 500.

I'll continue in the next day or two with comments on the Transcendence VC.

 

[m15a]

I think you're underestimating humanity's curiosity, really. Not that everyone would agree that making contact would be worth it (not everyone agrees with exploring real world science either), but once there is evidence, enough people in power *could* be convinced that it's the most important scientific discovery made by the colony and thus put in enough effort into developing the technology. It doesn't happen in every case - that's why it's only one of the 5 (6) victories. Some games, no one will try it. It's like the moon landing - not every country did it, and not everyone in the US took part in it, and the US was doing a ton of other stuff at the same time. And maybe the US wouldn't have done it if the situation was different.

Now for your remaining points - these are reasonable. But humans do unreasonable stuff. You (the OP) say you've read some sci-fi, so you probably know of the trope of some alien race or future human society thinking that the idea that 20th century humans created nuclear weapons is ridiculous - why would humans create something that just serves to destroy themselves on such a massive scale? Makes sense - but it still happened.

I could see a lot of the leaders having motivations to make contact, e.g., Polystralia and ARC see the opportunity for countless trading partners, Fanco-Iberia wants to spread human culture, PAU assume goodness in the aliens, etc.

 

[mehukatti]

An alien race that has had millions of years more time to develop most likely doesn't operate on the same level as us. (The universe is about 13.7 billion years old, so this is statistically more likely than merely thousands of years.) There wouldn't be trade between us, and we wouldn't work for them as slaves, mercenaries or anything else. We couldn't fight them, so uniting for that really makes no sense.

Contact is a victory condition, because contact with an advanced alien race would begin a new era in human history with truly unforeseen consequences, that are far beyond the scope of this game.