Confused about The Fall of Bhall

[Fistleaf]

Why did Bhall "fall"? Agares is "evil" but did not "fall" and apparently can still move around as he likes. Mulcarn entered creation but did not "fall". Why is it Bhall fell into Hell? Is she trapped in Hell? And what was the trigger that made her "fall", simply by abandoning Good?

 

[Darksaber1]

She fell more in the sense that she became evil, and abandoned de divine task of fighting evil. However, she did litteraly fall, taking much of the city of Braduk with her.
And Agares and the others did fall, but they did so willingle. Anyway, I'm sure Magister Cultuum will apear shortly with a long post on it
Edit: Yep, there he is

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I don't have time for a detailed explanation right now,but this should suffice:

The fall was a dramatic realignment that happened as the greatest champion for good gave in to Agares' temptations and succumbed to her own pride, becoming a great champion for evil. Her sphere was always one of dramatic change, so this change had to be very dramatic. Agares and Mulcarn had been planning to corrupt her for some time to let Mulcarn attack creation, but ultimately the choice to fall was hers. (Even though he was in on it, I believe that the spheres of Ice and Fire still don't get along, and so Agares new closeness to the goddess of fire puts a strain on his relationship with the Mulcarn/Auric Ascended. Bhall is stronger and favored, and the less evil Mulcarn/Auric would feel marginalized, possibly enough to move away from evil.)

The other evil gods "fell" too, but hell didn't exist yet at the time so there was nowhere for there wickedness to draw them.


Bhall is not trapped in hell per se, but because of the compact neither she nor any ofhter god is allowed to enter Creation. She could still visit the vaults of other gods though, at least with their permission.

The force of her fall left Bhall unconscious for most of the Age of Ice, but she is very much awake and active now. While she was in a coma she metamorphosed from an embodiment of holy passion to one of wicked rage, changing from one of the most beautiful goddesses to one of the most ugly.

There are actually 7 hells, one vault per evil god before Bhall fell. Ceridwen has worked to connect these 7 vaults, unifying them into 1 hell with several layers. Hell is a demon factory, designed to drive the souls of the departed downward from the hell they first enter (Mulcarn's was the highest, least evil, most livable hell, but most people skip that and go straight to Mammon's hell) though each successive layer, imparted greater vices along the way, until they reach Agares hell and are corrupted enough to truly be called demons.

Bhall fell straight from her holy heaven into Agares hell, and made part of it her own. Nyx went from being a barren world of the ashes left from when Agares first destroyed his creations to containing regions of utter darkness mixed in with regions of hellfire. The angels that fell with Bhall turned into Balors. In time Bhall may corrupt her old vault and have the connections between it and other heavens broken and replaced with connections to hell, but that hasn't happened yet. Her vault has remained holy, and Brigit might just have a chance to usurp her mistress's godhood and ascend to this heaven before it can be corrupted.

 

[Fistleaf]

Thanks. But if Bhall can fall with so much force to make her unconscious, what of the other evil gods, did they damage themselves in their own falls too? Also what was the temptation that made Bhall fall?

 

[Skitters]

Agares and Mulcarn had been planning to corrupt her for some time to let Mulcarn attack creation, but ultimately the choice to fall was hers. (Even though he was in on it, I believe that the spheres of Ice and Fire still don't get along, and so Agares new closeness to the goddess of fire puts a strain on his relationship with the Mulcarn/Auric Ascended. Bhall is stronger and favored, and the less evil Mulcarn/Auric would feel marginalized, possibly enough to move away from evil.)

The other evil gods "fell" too, but hell didn't exist yet at the time so there was nowhere for there wickedness to draw them.

Whilst I can understand that from Agares perspective, Mulcan dabbling in matters Erebus will go some way towards the One seeing creation being tainted, what does Mulcarn - and indeed the other evil Gods - get from aligning with Agares who, it seems, wants to effectively destroy the power they have built for themselves?

 

[Skitters]

Thanks. But if Bhall can fall with so much force to make her unconscious, what of the other evil gods, did they damage themselves in their own falls too? Also what was the temptation that made Bhall fall?

From this bit of MC's post

The other evil gods "fell" too, but hell didn't exist yet at the time so there was nowhere for there wickedness to draw them.

I think we can allude that (meta?)physical layers of heaven-erebus-hell were not in place at the fall of the original Evil Gods. Bhall's fall came some time afterwards, when the hells and heavens had been established - so she shattered through them to her new home.

Presumably the temptations - being linked to her pride - were on the lines of "Bhall....you know you really shouldn't be having to be reigned in by Junil and his petty laws. And Lugus? Pah - talk about indecisive. Your a lady of unconstrained decisiviness - and only playing for our team gets you that. You can be captain when you want to be, and you know you can have a good drink and laugh with us...

I mean - did we check whether some of the neat tricks you threw at us were in rules? No, unlike Junipops and Lookitupus - we all said what a nice move you'd put in there...come on, you owe it to yourself"

 

[Tyrs]

I'm a little curious about what the other hells are like. I know Cammy's is an eternal battlefield, but what is Aeron's? Or Esus'? Does Ceridwen have her own hell?

 

[cyther]

There is a lot of information in this thread if it helps. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=268765

 

[Blakmane]

Whilst I can understand that from Agares perspective, Mulcan dabbling in matters Erebus will go some way towards the One seeing creation being tainted, what does Mulcarn - and indeed the other evil Gods - get from aligning with Agares who, it seems, wants to effectively destroy the power they have built for themselves?

You have to remember that we have a 'Kael's eye view' of events here. It is likely that none of the other gods (even the fallen gods) have any idea that utter annihilation is Agares's intent. It is possible that Os-Gabella knows, given her similar objectives.

 

[Kael]

Whilst I can understand that from Agares perspective, Mulcan dabbling in matters Erebus will go some way towards the One seeing creation being tainted, what does Mulcarn - and indeed the other evil Gods - get from aligning with Agares who, it seems, wants to effectively destroy the power they have built for themselves?

Agares's marketing is that he is the great liberator. He is the one who stole the gems out of the true heaven. He is the one who allowed the gods to retain the ability to create (and advantage they all use, even while chastising him for it). From his perspective they are all hypocrites and his only crime is in not having an adequate amount of respect for the One (ie: not quivering in his boots just because the One treated them all like inferior beings).

There is a hundred ways to look at it, but Agares's motivation is more than a desire to destroy the world. His true crime is pride. He really wants to see creation and all the other gods align with him before the One returns. Ideally when the One came back he would show that the experiment of creation was flawed and that the nature state of creation was Agares's vision, not that of the One. Most importantly Agares want's to make sure that if the One comes back and wipes him out, he will be forced to wipe out everything else as well. Agares is a huge fan of the Compact, and prefers the conversion it allows over a war which just polarizes the sides.

Some small part of him dreams that with all the other gods aligned with him he would be able to overthrow the One when he returned. To take over the true heaven and set himself up as the new god with all the others beneath him (this is where Agares's "liberation" hypocracy begins). But even he doesn't know if thats possible.

 

[Broken Hawk]

Is Bhall the chattering child's head that is on the end of a stick that Jonas Endain carries around?

 

[Verdian]

No, that is the head of one of Bhall's priestesses that Jonas killed before taking over and forming the Clan of Embers. He carries it as a punishment. I believe the story is in his entry in the Civiliopedia.

 

[Darksaber1]

Sort of. It was the priestess's apprentice, and Bhall does use the girls head as a Avatar of sorts, and talks through it.

 

[rusty217]

Some small part of him dreams that with all the other gods aligned with him he would be able to overthrow the One when he returned. To take over the true heaven and set himself up as the new god with all the others beneath him (this is where Agares's "liberation" hypocracy begins). But even he doesn't know if thats possible.

Is it possible?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I say that overthrowing The One is possible, but only if The One says it is. All The One speaks and thinks become truth. If The One decides to become powerless he could, but you wouldn't be able to defeat him without his permission--if you can even count him letting you win as defeating him.


Agares still hopes beyond hope that he could usurp the power of The One, but he knows this hope is in vain. Thus, this Hope is turned to a profound Despair.

 

[KillerClowns]

I say that overthrowing The One is possible, but only if The One says it is. All The One speaks and thinks become truth. If The One decides to become powerless he could, but you wouldn't be able to defeat him without his permission--if you can even count him letting you win as defeating him.


Agares still hopes beyond hope that he could usurp the power of The One, but he knows this hope is in vain. Thus, this Hope is turned to a profound Despair.

I've actually been a bit dubious about the power of the One myself. You could argue that the One simply emphasized freedom of purpose over goodness. But the fact Agares managed to make a situation where the One could not intervene without causing massive destruction is a hefty blow to his omnipotence.
You could argue the One has a greater plan. But the strength of this argument leaves the lore department (for now, the scenarios may or may not amend this) and depends on the player's actions in the game. Build the Altar, and the One is pretty much justified in his actions; everyone lives happily ever after and, possibly, even Agares is redeemed. But if the Sheaim win, the world becomes a scorched waste of suffering and agony, and the One ends up looking a bit idiotic.
I say Agares can win, and without the One's permission, but only in the form of a Pyrrhic victory. Becoming Lord of the Universe requires turning said Universe into a scorched wasteland beyond repair. EDIT: It'd probably be in Agares' best interests to lose and rejoin the One. I'd even wager he knows it, but is too proud to do so, or admit it.

 

[Psycho_Ivan]

I say that overthrowing The One is possible, Thus, this Hope is turned to a profound Despair.

Oh yeah. This ties in with him being the God of Despair and former God of Hope, then?