Congress Shackles Westboro Baptist Church
- Thread starter KaiserElectric
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GhostWriter16
Deity
No offense, but hating the WBC is hardly a unique opinion.
Oh I know. But for the inevitable comments of "Bigot for protecting bigots" or any of that, especially since my unfavorable opinion of homoseuality is well known, I felt it needed to be emphasized. Call me what you will, but I want to make darn sure its because of what I really believe and not false perceptions of what I believe.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
Maybe they realize they will be judged?
I mean everyone gets judged in the end....so????
I dont think the bible is 'pretty clear' there are different degrees of sin. In fact, Jesus mentions that all sins are forgivable, except for one.
rugbyLEAGUEfan
Deity
That's a little unfair. I'd imagine that 999/1000 posters could express a hatred for the WBC without being called out for it.
Formaldehyde
Both Fair And Balanced
The issue as I see it really isn't about "hating" the WBC. It is being opposed to homophobia and bigotry in all its various forms enough to finally do something about it, much like the civil rights era eventually put an end to overt racism. Until the Civil Rights Act is amended to protect sexual orientation, it is just so much lip service.
And I think people should certainly react just as strongly to the WBC protesting in front of a public school, or the funeral for a victim of AIDs, or the funeral Bill Clinton's mother as they do when the WBC protests during a military funeral.
And I think people should certainly react just as strongly to the WBC protesting in front of a public school, or the funeral for a victim of AIDs, or the funeral Bill Clinton's mother as they do when the WBC protests during a military funeral.
GhostWriter16
Deity
Well, At least you're honest, about most things not related to your former name.
Wait, what?
Maybe they realize they will be judged?
I mean everyone gets judged in the end....so????
"Judge not, lest you be judged" obviously puts being judged in a negative light. Granted, while we will all be judged, Christians will be judged as being without sin, since Jesus Christ died for their sins. Those who are characterized (Remember, when the Bible talks about "Such and such people will not go to heaven" its talking about being characterized by certain sins, not simply committing them once, or King David would be in Hell, even though he was a "Man after God's own heart" and that conclusion simply doesn't work for me
)Just to be clear though, in that quote about not having a Christlike attitude, I'm addressing people that are actually hateful towards homosexuals while actually excusing their own sin, not those that struggle with sin but judge those who do not struggle with their own but willfully accept them. I hoped I was being clear, but maybe not, I'm talking about people that are actually hateful, and doubly so when being hypocritical about it. The WBC is a great example here, they are full of hate and immorality but judge homosexuals as the one group who is worthy of death and hate rather than love and forgiveness. Unless they repent, they are really going to get it on judgment day, according to Jesus.
Actually, you're implicitly acknowledging my point, by admitting that there is a sin that is worse than other sins. I agree with you that every sin is serious and that all but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit can be forgiven. For the Christian who is genuinely saved it doesn't matter how serious their former sins, because God sees them as he sees Christ, who died for them and washed them clean. Paul persecuted Christians before his conversion, yet later became one of the greatest Christians ever to live, if not the greatest. And in 2 Timothy (Waits for Plotinus to come in and try to explain to me why Paul didn't actually write the letter
) 4:7 Paul makes clear his expectation of eternal reward and doesn't seem concerned that he will be judged for his actions that he did when he was still lost http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Timothy+4:7&version=ESVThat said, while all sin merits eternal punishment (Romans 6:23, noting that nowhere is "Death" used to refer to physical death in such a theological work, but spiritual, and references to eternal punishment are used throughout the New Testament) it is pretty clear to me that in some way the punishment will be greater for some sins than others:
Matthew 11:23-24
While unbelief seems to be regarded as a sin regardless, unbelief after seeing clear evidence is seen as even more serious than disbelief without evidence, and Jesus makes clear that Sodom will have an easier judgment than Capernaum.
As a parallel, while (genuine) belief always leads to eternal life, there is apparently some greater reward for those who believe WITHOUT seeing:
To continue on the topic of different degrees of sin, James also supports it:
I'd personally consider this one to be the one unforgivable sin as you mentioned, rejecting both the Catholic view that this is talking about so-called "Mortal" sins (Since a mortal sin supposedly could still be forgiven with confession, so not praying for such a person, as described earlier in the chapter, wouldn't make sense) and the view of certain people I have seen that like to apologize for the tougher verses in the Bible saying its talking about physical, not spiritual death. But its still worth mentioning.
And why does Paul specifically list certain sins, that so often make up evil lifestyles, and say those that practice them can never enter Heaven?
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Now, I'd agree, as I stated, that this is talking about continual practioneers of sin, not those that genuinely struggle, but the verse is still there and talks about specific sins and seems to imply they are more serious than some other sins.
Nevermind the Old Testament, that makes these sorts of distinctions all the time. A murderer is put to death, but a thief is not. An adulterer is killed, but a fornicator or not. Of course, some of the OT laws were specifically ceremonial, and for Israel, and even those that weren't ceremonial, we still don't have to enforce the same penalties God prescribed for his Chosen Nation, but the reality that some sins were taken as more serious than others remains.
And let's look at one more passage in proverbs...
God singles out six specific sins (The seventh being a second listing of lying) being more serious than others.
I'd challenge you to find one verse that actually says all sin is exactly the same and is judged in exactly the same way.
Indeed.
That was my point.
What, are you still pretending you were never named Domination3000?
GhostWriter16
Deity
No, and I don't recall to ever doing so other than in jest (Or perhaps in shame at a particular post I made that I now regret)
But I'm not sure what your post was referencing.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
"Judge not, lest you be judged" obviously puts being judged in a negative light. Granted, while we will all be judged, Christians will be judged as being without sin, since Jesus Christ died for their sins. Those who are characterized (Remember, when the Bible talks about "Such and such people will not go to heaven" its talking about being characterized by certain sins, not simply committing them once, or King David would be in Hell, even though he was a "Man after God's own heart" and that conclusion simply doesn't work for me
Let's quote the passage in question.
Matthew 7:1-5 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
The whole point is not that we cant judge people is that we need to be mindful of ourselves first that we are not guilty of the same sin or even a greater sin and then when we are judging we are doing so hypocritically, which is what Jesus is warning us about, don't be an hypocrite when doing it. I really hate how people use this passage to say we can't judge people, when it is not saying that at all. Jesus was perhaps the most judgemental person in the world, since he could see through the façade of the Pharisees and as a result of him constantly showing the people the reality behind the rulers of the time, he was condemned to death as a result. In fact part of the Gospel message to show others that they are sinners, and that often means showing that there are certain things they are doing that are unacceptable to God. Saying something is sinful is basically saying that such behaviour is unacceptable and you should stop doing it.
KaiserElectric
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GhostWriter16
Deity
I basically agree with your interpretation, with the caveat that Jesus judged the proud, but gave grace to the humble. Jesus didn't judge the Samaritan woman, even though he did point out her sin, because she already knew she was a sinner and needed forgiveness. Ditto with the adulterous woman. He said "Go and sin no more" but he didn't judge her personally.
However, to the proud, Jesus did judge. The rich young ruler and the Pharisees both thought they were good people and so Jesus judged them harshly.
There's a fine line between judging actions and judging people, and how exactly it is applied. But the people that say "Don't judge... anything" are simply wrong about what the passage is actually saying.
Jesus perhaps gets a free pass. The point of the passage to me was 'do not judge anything because you'll find that you've done far worse' - that doesn't apply to Jesus, so he's free to judge as much as he wants.
GhostWriter16
Deity
I think that's an absurd conclusion. So you can't judge a serial killer for murdering a bunch of people, because you've done far worse? I don't think that's a logical conclusion.
However, I think there's some truth to what you say. "We can judge as much and as harshly as we want as long as we don't do the same thing" I don't find an acceptable conclusion either, because it pretty much allows self-righteousness.
Here's the thing, if you are going to judge sin, you need to do so within God's will, and while being able to love the sinner at the same time, AND you can't do it hypocritcally.
kochman
Deity
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Is this some warped sense of Mystery Science Theatre 3000?
Dude, seriously, put the kool aid down, it isn't helping you think straight.
Well, in truth you can't judge a serial killer because that's not your job; get back in your box and remember that God has judged everybody, so to second-guess that is arrogant in the extreme. That doesn't mean that the law can't punish him, but that you shouldn't say 'this man is worth less than that man', ever. Jesus' way of saying it got the point across better, because there's very few situations in which you can see somebody doing wrong and say that you've never done anything comparable to it.
MobBoss
Off-Topic Overlord
I've said it a lot on this particular subject. There is a difference in judging someones soul and judging their actions.
Berzerker
Deity
Jesus said we can judge souls?
a group of people judged the actions of an adulteress and Jesus ripped them for their hypocrisy
a group of people judged the actions of an adulteress and Jesus ripped them for their hypocrisy
But those were stoners, not uptright law-abiding citizens.
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