Conquests Project I: Mesopotamia

[thestonesfan]

After playing a few of the Conquests, my mind inevitably began thinking of ways of making them better. So, my idea is to get sort of a 'team' going for each of them, and work out some ideas that would improve them. Since Mesopotamia is the first, I figured it would be a good one to start with.

Proposal #1

Most importantly, I think this scenario needs some more civs. We should have plenty of leaderheads to use. Here are my suggestions:

Dorians - Invaders from northern Greece who eventually overran the Mycenaeans.

Minoans - The civ that preceeded the Mycenaeans and was centered on Crete.

Lydians - A good civ to fill up eastern Asia Minor and to give the Hittites some competition.

Scythians - Someone to fill up the area above the Medeans.

Now, I played as Mycenae, and I felt I had too much room. The other areas seemed a bit better, but overall, this game just didn't seem crowded enough.

As for the map - does anyone think we should use a different one covering a larger area? We could turn it into more of an 'Ancient Mediterranean' scenario.

Well, I have more ideas, but I need to get to work. If anyone has any others, concerning units, or the tech tree, or anything, be sure to share them!

 

[Louis XXIV]

Well, I've been thinking about the idea for awhile.

I cam up with a few ideas for the mod, but I wanted to play it first so I could get a better feel (so I still need C3C )

My version didn't do much but lower the south of the map. Because of this, I only added 2 civs (but I considered more). The 2 civs I would add would be Assyria (Militaristic, Industious. Tigleth-Pileser would be the leader, and the uu would be a 5.2.3 Horse Archer that replaces Cavalry). The other would be Nubia, but I don't know what to do with that.

I considered the Libyans (to the West of Egypt, these tribes united with the Sea Peoples to attack Egypt, but, aside from that, had mostly peaceful relations with the Egyptians). I decided not to include them because I would have to think of a real uu to replace the fake Tyrian Guard (The Numidian Mercenary is actually Libyan, so I would use that uu)

The only other changes I had were a few unit and tech things.

I added Javelin Thrower. This is basically the current Archer. 3.1.1 20 shields.

Slinger: 2.1.1 1.0.1 15 shields. A defensive bombard unit designed to give a little defense by knocking off an HP.

Archer: Available at a new tech called "Archery", which I think I put after Warrior Code without any other pre-reqs. I made it 3.2.1 1.01 25 shields. It doesn't have an improved attack compared to Javelins, but it is a better overall unit for only 5 more shields.

Bowmen are now 4.2.1 1.0.1

Horsemen are 2.1.2 20 shields, Chariots are 3.1.2 30 shields. I did this to make Chariots more important. I wanted to create an "Early Chariot" unit (you can look for my request I couple of days ago) which would be available at "The Wheel" and a later Chariot (current graphics) available at Chariotry. But, since I don't think the unit will get made, I decided to leave it with the current units.

I mentioned the Assyrian Horse Archer already. It would be a very late unit, but a powerful one.

I also added a "Bronze" resource, since Bronze was historically rarer than Iron. Its also why I added Defense to Archers and added the Defensive Bombard units.

As for your ideas.

Most importantly, I think this scenario needs some more civs. We should have plenty of leaderheads to use. Here are my suggestions:

Dorians - Invaders from northern Greece who eventually overran the Mycenaeans.

I think this isn't a bad idea, but right now, Mycenaeans represent all of Greece. You would need a new Mycenaean leaderhead, as the Dorians are the present day Greeks.

Minoans - The civ that preceeded the Mycenaeans and was centered on Crete.

The Minoans were conquered by the Mycenaeans too. I think they would be an interesting civ if they weren't stuck on such a tiny island. Because of the lack of space, it might be unrealistic to include them.

Lydians - A good civ to fill up eastern Asia Minor and to give the Hittites some competition.

I think the Assyrians should be in (they did conquer the whole region) and they would probably spread in that direction. They could keep the Hittites in check. Since Babylon got a bit crowded, I improved their uu (and they still have the culture boost).

Scythians - Someone to fill up the area above the Medeans.

I like the idea, but I don't know much about them.

Now, I played as Mycenae, and I felt I had too much room. The other areas seemed a bit better, but overall, this game just didn't seem crowded enough.

As for the map - does anyone think we should use a different one covering a larger area? We could turn it into more of an 'Ancient Mediterranean' scenario.

I like the current area, except I would add a bit more of the south to include Nubia. Also, Saudi Arabia and the area West of Africa should be unable to be settled. Barbarians would still pop out, but you wouldn't have Sumer that far south (which is unrealistic).

That's my 2 cents for now. I'm glad someone started this before me, so I could act more as a sounding board (as opposed to doing all the work ).

 

[thestonesfan]

I think it might be a good idea to replace Sumeria with Assyria(but not put them in the same area, of course). I'd put them between Babylon and the Hittites.

As for Horsemen, I think they should be a late-game unit, and better than chariots. The breeding of bigger, ridable horses by the Assyrians rendered the chariots obsolete. I'd be tempted to make them unique for Assyria, but if the Scythians were put in, they should definately get them.

We could give the Minoans a couple curraghs to start with, so they could settle beyond Crete.

I like the Lybians. I was trying to think of a civ to put in that area. Extending the map south would be nice, but I don't know if it would be worth the trouble.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

Ah, progress! It's what being a modder is all about!

 

[Louis XXIV]

NO, not replace add

I think there is plently of room in the north for Assyria. Stretching from Ashur to Lake Van (maybe even higher, to the black Sea). In every screenshot of the game I've seen, that area is empty and the Assyrians did own the area at one point. I have a city list for all 3 civs, so I think they can fit.

I think the Minoans would be interesting because they are similar to Phoenicia. Both would be Seafaring civs that start with ships. Neither land is actually that great.

Mentioning Phoenicia reminded me of an idea. A new resource - Timber. Phoenicia had 2 main exports. Their famous Purple dye, and the good quality timber from the Cedars of Lebanon. They used these Timbers to help them build ships. I think Timber would make a nice Strategic Resource (giving you Timber, Bronze, Horses, and Iron as the needed resources). I was also thinking of adding Papyrus as a luxury and allowing a special (weaker) Galley built from Papyrus (the Egyptians built ships out of this material, but they were weaker quality. You could use this unit by aaglo
http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/viewtopic.php?t=4431
Just a thought.).

I don't like the current Horsemen being that early (But they do have both Horses and Ancient Cavalry). Horsemen could represent primitive Horsemen (before Chariots), while Ancient Cav can represent the Cavalry of Assyria's day (I have no clue if early horsemen existed, but I don't want to mess with the current version too much ).

You have a point about the effort it would take to move the map south a bit. Egypt's main enemy (until the New Kingdom) was the Nubians. Although I think they are currently represented by Barbarians, I think it would be cool to make them a civ. But they don't fit on the current map. If the Libyans are added into the game, Phoenicia would need a new uu. Maybe a Bireme (early Trireme, invented by Phoenicia, while the Trireme was invented by Greece). If the Dorians were added (where did they come from originally, anyway?), you would need a uu for the Mycenaeans.

 

[thestonesfan]

No, chariots pre-dated Horsemen by many years. As far as I know, the Assyrians were the first to fight on horseback.

I think it's sort of a mystery where the Dorians came from. They were probably some Indo-Aryan tribe who migrated through Thrace and then south into Greece. For a leaderhead we could use Brennus, or Charles of Austria. The Minoans could get Caesar.

I like the timber idea. Egypt should have to import it to build ships.

The Phoenician UU should definately be a naval unit, but I'm not sure what we could use. I would be okay with using the same art as the generic Galley and calling it a Bireme, since the Phoenician superiority lay more with the sailors, than with the ships.

 

[Louis XXIV]

You could always use these Trireme graphics (another great unit by aaglo )

http://www.cdgroup.org/forums/tbs/civ3/viewtopic.php?t=4467

I think it could be something like an improved attack and extra transport. But you would also have to get something for the Minoans (maybe a Curragh replacement, or some other early unit).

If you cut out early Horsemen, you'd have to find a good place to put Horseback Riding (assuming you don't cut it out entirely). Maybe Horseback Riding could require Ironworking, and Horsemanship require Military Training and Horseback Riding.

Here is info about Cavalry
http://xenograg.isauras.com/excerpts/war/cavalry2.php

Than the Mounted line could be:

Chariot 2.1.2 20
War Chariot 3.1.2 20
3-Man Chariot 3.2.2 30
Horseman 4.2.2 40
Cavalry 5.2.2 50
Horse Archer 5.2.3 50 or 4.2.3 40 (depending on which unit to replace). If you replace the Horseman, you might want to consider giving Ancient Cav 3 moves.

I would like an early Chariot, which would take the 2.1.2 (20)slot, pushing Chariot to 3.1.2 (30), War Chariot and 3-Man would be 4.1.2 (30) and 4.2.2 (40)

While the foot units would be
Warrior 2.1.1 10 (Is there any Warrior Spear around, I think the Axeman doesn't fit the region).
Enkidu Warrior 2.2.1 10
Slinger 2.1.1 15 1.0.1 15
Javelin Thrower 3.1.1 20
Archer 3.2.1 1.0.1 25
Bowman 4.2.1 1.0.1 25
Spearman 2.3.1
Hoplite 2.4.1
Libyan Infantry/Tyrian Guard 3.3.1
Swordsman 4.3.1 40
Companion 5.4.1 50

Is the Medean uu an Immortal? Maybe make it 6.4.1 50.

For an Assyrian leaderhead, In think Syrus Knife made one awhile back for the Great Lost Civilization Mod. It was designed for Nebechadnezzar, but I think it would work well for Tigleth-Pileser (all the Assyrian leaders I've seen were statues that looked exactly the same, and not much different than this guy).

Hope the image shows.

 

[thestonesfan]

Cool leaderhead, but I don't think the Assyrians were that dark...

I thought about the Trireme aaglo made, but it's pretty distinctly Greek.

 

[mrtn]

If the map gets larger the gaming gets slower. Not always a good idea.

Don't add bronze as a resource. Bronze is an alloy made up of copper and tin. Tin is more scarce than copper, so that could be the resource.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Copper is brittle and actually isn't much better than stone. You would need Bronze (by mixing the 2) in order to have a useful metal. That's why I think they should be mixed together (plus I don't want to risk having some AI civ have tin connected, but not copper). Also, Bronze would appear at Bronze Working, but, if they were seperate, both copper and tin would have been known for some time.

thestonesfan, fine, you find a better version I actually might make a request some time soon and see if I can get one that was specifically designed to be Assyrian (hopefully Tiglath Pileser, I think Ashurbanipal was, in the end, a bad ruler).

As for the Bireme, your probably right. I guess I'll just have to ask someone to make this units as well



I've been thinking about the Dorians, and I'm thinking that they may be a bad idea. Its unknown where they came from, but they have to start somewhere in the scenario. If you judge it where they became the strongest, you'd have to put them in the Peleponese (exactly where Mycenae is). If you do include them, you'd have to remember that the Dorians, not the Mycenaeans, are the Greeks as we know them. They would probably get the Alexander leaderhead. Judging by the mask of Agamemnon (a Mycenaean funeral mask which they named after the legendary King in the Trojan War, the mask pre-dates the war, however) I think that Charles V (Austrian Leader) would fit the Mycenaeans pretty well.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Hey what do you think about this?

Look too much like a Curragh?

 

[Louis XXIV]

I hate to keep posting after delays like this, because you'd probably miss my first post, but here's an Assyrian city list. I put names in Parentheses if it has a different name for a different civ (mostly Babylon, one Persian)

Ashur
Nineveh
Eribil
Arapkha
Calah (Nimrud)
Dur-Sharukin (Carchemish)
Nuzi
Urbullum (Arbela)
Jarmo
Harran
Shibaniba
Nimit-Ishtar
Kakzu
Van
Tarbisu
Imber-bel
Tushpa (Is it Tushpa or Thushpa)
Khabur
Tur Abdin
Aram
Kar-Tukulti
Hatra
Jerwan

I stole 2 cities from Babylon (Ashur and Nineveh), so I replaced those cities with Dur-Kurigalzu and Til Garimmu (Both are Kassite cities, but Babylon was under Kassite control for a suprising amount of its history).

 

[Mithadan]

That Assyrian leaderhead should have a big, black, curly beard.

And yeah, I think the Assyrians had a nice, rich, bronzed tan to their skin -- i.e., the hues on the leaderhead are fine with me...

P.S. Louix XXIV, I have the Osprey book on the Scythians, and am presently re-reading. If I can be of service, I will be...!

 

[Louis XXIV]

Please do. BTW, I will make a request for Tiglath Pileser, but I wanted to request the Horse Archer first (I thought it would look bad to have 2 back-to-back requests).

 

[Mithadan]

Ah, well, I will be at service then. Now, the question is, how can I be of service?

So far, I've babbled on (in your other thread) about how I'd prefer an Assyrian foot unit to a Horse Archer for the Assyrian UU, because a horse archer would be more appropriate as a Scythian UU. I dunno if you find that "service," though, cuz I wasn't exactly agreeing with you!

Anyway, ask what questions you will, and I'll see what I can find in my nice two books (I only own three Osprey books: one on the Assyrians, on on the Scythians, and one on Germanic warriors of the Migrations period).

 

[Redking]

There is a modern Assyrian identity - a component population with Syria, Irag, and Iran.

They are, for the most part, quite light skinned, and most are Christians these days FYI.

What about Phrygia? The Kassites?

And when you consider the Scyths, keep in mind that most of their contemporaries described them as having light hair and weilding straight, double-edged swords.

 

[Mithadan]

Originally posted by Redking
There is a modern Assyrian identity - a component population with Syria, Irag, and Iran.

True enough, I know one such guy. Yeah, his skin isn't super dark, it's sort of "North African" coloured, like a Turk or a Moroccan or so. Hmm, I guess that does make the leaderhead a little on the dark side, don't it?

Re: the Scythians, yeah, they weren't "Asiatic" in appearance or dress, unlike most of the other steppe horsemen that kept on showing up in European history...

Phygria, sure. Kassites, I have no clue. I'm entirely uninformed about them!

 

[thestonesfan]

If I remember correctly, the Phrygian territory would mostly overlap with the Hittites. I don't know anything about the Kassites, sorry.

A Spearman upgrade with Iron Working or a Swordsman alternate would be fine for the Assyrians, I'd think. But, we don't have one. I agree a horse archer would be the one for the Scythians, and the Keshik should fit that bill.

While we're talking about them, I don't think Temujin is a good leaderhead for the Scythians.

Back to the Dorians - I named them because I think we need a civ for that area. It was empty in my game. Starting location isn't all that important - they were there in history. Granted, they moved south and mingled with the native peoples, so they weren't really a 'civ' in and of themselves. I would be fine with using someone else for the area, but I'm not sure who else would work.

I don't really mind not having graphically distinct UU's. The chances a unit creator will join in on the project is pretty slim, so we're probably going to have to make due with what we have. All the same, we could cook up a nice, concise list of the units we need most, and pitch it to Kinboat or utahjazz or someone.

I like your list, Louis. Maybe a little too many chariot units for my tastes(unless they are UU's), but it might be more fun that way.

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by Louis XXIV
Copper is brittle and actually isn't much better than stone. You would need Bronze (by mixing the 2) in order to have a useful metal. That's why I think they should be mixed together (plus I don't want to risk having some AI civ have tin connected, but not copper). Also, Bronze would appear at Bronze Working, but, if they were seperate, both copper and tin would have been known for some time....

I didn't mean it to be two resources. Make tin the resource (it's most scarce), and just assume everyone has copper.
Just don't call the resource bronze, you won't find a bronze mine anywhere. Bronze is as good a resource as plastic is.
Copper can be a bonus resource.

 

[Dom Pedro II]

I'm made they don't allow for manufacturable resources... I think that would've been a great addition to the game.