Conquests Project I: Mesopotamia

[Louis XXIV]

Originally posted by thestonesfan
If I remember correctly, the Phrygian territory would mostly overlap with the Hittites. I don't know anything about the Kassites, sorry.

The Kassites invaded Babylon from an unkown source and adopted their culture. No one knows where they came from, and the biggest change to Babylonian history they caused was a name change of the capital (IMHO). Since Babylonian culture remianed intact, I don't think of them as a seperate civ, but the same civ under a different name (even if the Amorites didn't own Babylon, the city was still the same city, the home of the god Marduk, chief god of Babylon).

I feel the same way about the Hyskos (although their contribution was giving the Egyptians the War Chariot and a new foreign policy).

A Spearman upgrade with Iron Working or a Swordsman alternate would be fine for the Assyrians, I'd think. But, we don't have one. I agree a horse archer would be the one for the Scythians, and the Keshik should fit that bill.

I think there is a Scythian Horse Archer that someone made.

While we're talking about them, I don't think Temujin is a good leaderhead for the Scythians.

If its any help, I think The Ancient Meditarainian used Montizuma at one point for the Scythian Leaderhead. (Not sure, though).

Back to the Dorians - I named them because I think we need a civ for that area. It was empty in my game. Starting location isn't all that important - they were there in history. Granted, they moved south and mingled with the native peoples, so they weren't really a 'civ' in and of themselves. I would be fine with using someone else for the area, but I'm not sure who else would work.

I'm sorry, I don't have any ideas. I know Mycenae is isolated right now, but maybe the Minoans would help balance it out.

I don't really mind not having graphically distinct UU's. The chances a unit creator will join in on the project is pretty slim, so we're probably going to have to make due with what we have. All the same, we could cook up a nice, concise list of the units we need most, and pitch it to Kinboat or utahjazz or someone.

The only units I didn't have the the list I made was the stone slinger (2 MesoAmercian Slingers were made, but no Middle Eastern one. I think 2 Mid-East ones are in the development phase, though (I think one is an Israeli one) ). The other unit I don't think there is graphics for is a Javelin (but I'm probably wrong on this). I think Kryten will eventually finish one based on a cut-and-paste of the Spearman (but I wouldn't expect that for at least a month). I tried to avoid units that couldn't be made, because it is very hard to get any unit you want made on a whim

I like your list, Louis. Maybe a little too many chariot units for my tastes(unless they are UU's), but it might be more fun that way.

Except for the proposal of an Early Chariot (which I think would be un-practical to do, unless we double the graphics with the regular), I have 3 Chariots. One is a generic chariot, the other 2 are uus (Egypt gets the War Chariot, Hittites get the 3-Man, just like in the original scenario and the main game).

As for Bronze vs Tin, I still like Bronze, in spite of any historical innacuracies. Tin doesn't seem as special, doesn't give the impression as being as cool, and feels a little weird to get "Tin" from "Bronze Working". The Collosus would be Bronze (needing Bronze), not Tin. However, in the end, I guess I'm not picky. I think making Copper a bonus (possibly even a luxury) resource isn't a bad idea.

 

[Redking]

since contemporary documentation and modern archaeology agree that the Scyths were tall, fair, and tattooed, Ragnar seems as good a leaderhead as any.

Regarding the Phrygians - they came out of the Balkans, and played a part in the undoing of the Hittites. They themselves saw their zenith soon eroded by invading Cimmerians, followed by further Hellenization. Some give them as the originating culture of the Armenians/Kingdom of Van.

As a game piece, the Phrygians make a good intermediary between the Doric and Hittite peoples, and the Cimmerians/Scyths.

The most famous Phrygian was King Midas - you know about him, right?

 

[Kal-el]

great idea guys.

 

[Pangur Bán]

My 1st Proposal:

1) I played this conquest, but I gave it up when I saw Egypt. Egypt was building cities in the desert. Absolutely absurd. Cities can't be build in the Libyan desert. The Egyptians certainly couldn't. Seeing Egyptian cities all over the Libyan desert, and Sumerian cities throughout the Syro-Arabian desert made me quit the game in disgust. I propose that it is made impossible to build cities in the desert.

2) There is no attrition in civ3, unlike in better games like EUII. But there are other ways to limit army movement in the desert. Ancient armies couldn't simply travel over deserts or vast mountain ranges at no cost. Crossing the desert was suicidal. Crossing mountain ranges was almost as impossible. One way could be to make desert impassable to virtually all units. Perhaps the "wheeled unit" function could be reused?!

 

[LouLong]

In my map of Egypt, I have made desert and mountains "disease"-lands. I haven't tried it though and my aim is not to cause a city pop loss but to enable the dying of troops crossing through these areas to limit the Stack over mountain or through desert syndrom.

 

[thestonesfan]

So far, I'd say we have a quite a few decent ideas. I'll work on kind of summary and post it later.

Before I split, I will say I like the more 'resource intensive' plan of requiring bronze, or copper and tin for bronze. I say, have them both be resources. Copper could be very common, while tin could be more rare.

 

[thestonesfan]

Mesopotamia Strikes Back

Mission Statement - To improve the experience of the scenario in a timely manner without a massive overhaul, and to keep it as polished and professional as possible(Re: I'm picky about custom art - so sue me! ).

Updated Civ List(w/ possible leaderheads):

Definites:
Babylonians(Southern Mesopotamia) - Hammarubi
Egyptians(Nile Valley) - Cleopatra
Hittites(Central Anatolia) - Mursilis
Mycenaeans(Southern Greece) - Alexander
Phoenicians(Lebanon) - Hannibal
Medeans(Western Iran) - Xerxes
Assyrians(Middle Mesopotamia) - Gilgamesh?
Scythians(Caucasus) - Brennus, Ragnar, or Montezuma

Maybes:
Dorians(Northern Greece) - Brennus
Minoans(Crete) - Caesar
Libyans(Libya) - Shaka
Sumerians(Southern Mesopotamia) - Gilgamesh
Phrygians(Eastern Anatolia) - ??
Lydians(Eastern Anatolia) - ??
Kassites(Western Iran) - ??
Hyksos(Libya? I'm not sure) - ??
Judeans/Israelis(Judea or Israel) - ??

My main reason for suggesting that the Sumerians be left out is that they really are not contemporary with the other civs. As far as I know, the only contemporaries they had were the Akkadians and the Egyptians. Also, if the Assyrians are put in, Babylon will need the southern area available to give them a chance.

Were there any well-known female monarchs from the time? That would help as far as leaderheads go. I don't know much about the user-made ones that are floating around, so if there are any that would help, be sure to say so.

The Map

As of now, I think the consensus is to leave the map unchanged.

Possibly for a future version, I like the idea of making a new map - one that is more focused on Mesopotamia. No Greece, primarily. We could shift the area covered south, to get the Nubians and possibly Ku****es. It could be enlarged slightly for still more civs!

Units

I compiled a list of any ancient era unit art we could possibly use.

From Civ3:
Worker
Settler
Warrior
Archer
Spearman
Swordsman
Chariot
Horseman
Catapult
Galley
Bowman
Hoplite
War Chariot
Legionary(I would rather not use him)
Immortal
Rider

From PTW:
Keshik

From C3C:
Enkidu Warrior(Warrior replacement - if someone could fix the graphic, that would be awesome)
Three-Man Chariot
Curragh
Enslaved Worker
Ancient Cavalry(Like the Legionary, I don't think this really fits at all)

User Created:
Gladiator - utahjazz7
Slavic Horseman - utahjazz7
Lion Warrior - utahjazz7
Inti Warrior(I think he could pass for something) - utahjazz7 or Kinboat
Peltast(Javelin thrower) - Kryten
Various Hoplites - Kryten
Macedonian Phalangite - Kryten
Macedonian Hyspaspist - Kryten
Ancient Ship - Kryten
Companion Horseman - Kryten
Spear Immortal - Nemesis Rex
Egyptian Galley - aaglo
Egyptian Galleass - aaglo
Trireme - aaglo
Greek Archer - embryodead

I probably missed some, but that's quite a bit more than we need, I'd say.

There are, of course, some we don't have that would be awesome:
Mesopomian Spearman(Looks more Babylonian/Assyrian than the current one)
Some type of Scout unit. The Indian guy is way out of place and I'm afraid he'll get homesick. We could use a King unit - Ghandi maybe?
Assyrian Horseman
Phoenician Galley
Siege Engine(The Assyrians wrote the book on siege engines)

Well, that's all I can think of at the moment. Unit wise, we aren't too bad. I'll hold off on making up an actual unit list until I can look at the tech tree.

Techs

I've only played through once, so I don't have a real grasp of the tech tree. It seemed pretty good, though. I'll look at it when I get home, if I get a chance.

I do know they have Irrigation as a tech, which I don't like. The cities would never have been founded in the first place if the people didn't have some grasp of irrigation.

Improvements

Again, they seemed fine to me. I'm not big on adding a whole lot of improvements. If there is better art out there for some of them, we'll use it.

Governments

We haven't really discussed this yet.

Deserts

Calgacus is right - desert should be more hostile. Off the top of my head, I think that historically the Egyptians had only one city in the desert - Khartoum - and that was built on an oasis. The 'disease terrain' idea is good - but can we rename disease to "drought" or "famine"? Other than that, we should block city building in desert squares and raise the movement cost. Obviously, this will really isolate the Libyans, should we include them, but we could give them a special unit.

Resources

I think we should add Tin, Copper, Flax, and Lumber. More resources never killed anybody.

Victory Conditions

If we have more civs, it's going to be harder to get the wonders built. I'm not even sure if I like this victory condition in the first place. We should go over this subject a little. IMO, domination makes for the most enjoyable game. Anyone have any other ideas?

Okay, that's it for now. If I have some time, I'd like to start the actual work(blah, planning is so much more fun!) this weekend.

 

[Louis XXIV]

That might work. It makes more historical sense. Mesopotamia is pretty much resource poor. It has no useful metals, it has no ship building wood. All it has is good soil and clay. The earliest Assyrians of the days of Samshi Adad became prosperous by trading. They traded with Anatolia for Copper (they offered Tin in exchange). They got Tin from either the Zagros Mountains or from Iran. Thus, together, they got Bronze.

Although I'm saying Mesopotamia itself should be resource poor, resources can't be too far away.

I think the Desert problem is an easy fix. Replace Jungle with a Terrain like "Inhospitable Desert". Replace most of Saudi Arabia and the most South-Westernly part of the map with this terrain type. Make it impossible to build cities on this terrain. This way, there will be some cities in the Desert, but not too far into the Desert (I want the fringes of fertile areas to have some cities).

I think Unit should be able to pass through, though (And have Barbs live in the area).

Anyway, I made this map as this quick sketch of what I'd expect the territories to look like (assuming no war). I also assumed the map would add a bit more for the Nubians, and I didn't add anyone in Northern Greece. I just added the Assyrians, Scythians, and Libyans. The colors are completely arbitrary, but I've almost come to associate Assyria with the Russian Brown (because I've used their color for Assyria for a long time).

Assyria is Brown, Scythia is a Dark Blue, The Minoans are a Sky Blue, and the Libyans are using Black.

 

[Mithadan]

Originally posted by thestonesfan
Siege Engine(The Assyrians wrote the book on siege engines)

When aaglo returns from his unit-making-vacation, he's going to turn his Siege Quinquereme into a siege tower. That would be handy, although it wouldn't look like the Assyrian tower, with their blade-headed "battering" ram thing...

 

[Louis XXIV]

Here's a map that showed resources of the area. Mesopotamia is, of course, poor of resources. It doesn't have Tin or Stone. I would assume Stone will just be where it is currently, I think Nubia was rich is stone, and definately had gold (the Egyptian word Nub means gold). I think Tin was in Iran and East of Mesopotamia. But it should be possible for the Hittites to get it fairly conveniently (and allow it to be not far from Mesopotamia). The first map is Mesopotamia, the second is Greece.

http://www.uoregon.edu/~atlas/europe/static/map01.html
http://www.uoregon.edu/~atlas/europe/static/map02.html

 

[LouLong]

You can have my Egyptian spearman if need be.

 

[Mithadan]

Don't you go "" on me, LouLong; I love your Egyptian Spearman!

 

[Louis XXIV]

I don't think I actually read this post before entirely. I think we might have double posted, because I never even knew it existed.

Originally posted by thestonesfan
Mesopotamia Strikes Back

Mission Statement - To improve the experience of the scenario in a timely manner without a massive overhaul, and to keep it as polished and professional as possible(Re: I'm picky about custom art - so sue me! ).

Updated Civ List(w/ possible leaderheads):

Definites:
Babylonians(Southern Mesopotamia) - Hammarubi
Egyptians(Nile Valley) - Cleopatra
Hittites(Central Anatolia) - Mursilis
Mycenaeans(Southern Greece) - Alexander
Phoenicians(Lebanon) - Hannibal
Medeans(Western Iran) - Xerxes
Assyrians(Middle Mesopotamia) - Gilgamesh?
Scythians(Caucasus) - Brennus, Ragnar, or Montezuma

I assume your talking about the leaderhead. I don't think Gilgamesh looks Assyrian at all (Hammurabi looks much better), but you use what you can get.

Maybes:
Dorians(Northern Greece) - Brennus
Minoans(Crete) - Caesar
Libyans(Libya) - Shaka
Sumerians(Southern Mesopotamia) - Gilgamesh
Phrygians(Eastern Anatolia) - ??
Lydians(Eastern Anatolia) - ??
Kassites(Western Iran) - ??
Hyksos(Libya? I'm not sure) - ??
Judeans/Israelis(Judea or Israel) - ??

I would use Judah. It was the more important, longer lasting, kingdom. Of courese, this is only if you can fit it.

My main reason for suggesting that the Sumerians be left out is that they really are not contemporary with the other civs. As far as I know, the only contemporaries they had were the Akkadians and the Egyptians. Also, if the Assyrians are put in, Babylon will need the southern area available to give them a chance.

You have a point here.

Were there any well-known female monarchs from the time? That would help as far as leaderheads go. I don't know much about the user-made ones that are floating around, so if there are any that would help, be sure to say so.

Nefertiti is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.

The Map

As of now, I think the consensus is to leave the map unchanged.

Possibly for a future version, I like the idea of making a new map - one that is more focused on Mesopotamia. No Greece, primarily. We could shift the area covered south, to get the Nubians and possibly Ku****es. It could be enlarged slightly for still more civs!

I like the idea. The only reason Greece is there at all is because of the Persian Wars, and the fact that Greece conquered the region. Also, many of the wonders are Greek (what do you expect, a Greek wrote the list of Wonders of the World).

Units

I compiled a list of any ancient era unit art we could possibly use.

From Civ3:
Worker
Settler
Warrior
Archer
Spearman
Swordsman
Chariot
Horseman
Catapult
Galley
Bowman
Hoplite
War Chariot
Legionary(I would rather not use him)
Immortal
Rider

From PTW:
Keshik

From C3C:
Enkidu Warrior(Warrior replacement - if someone could fix the graphic, that would be awesome)
Three-Man Chariot
Curragh
Enslaved Worker
Ancient Cavalry(Like the Legionary, I don't think this really fits at all)

User Created:
Gladiator - utahjazz7
Slavic Horseman - utahjazz7
Lion Warrior - utahjazz7
Inti Warrior(I think he could pass for something) - utahjazz7 or Kinboat
Peltast(Javelin thrower) - Kryten
Various Hoplites - Kryten
Macedonian Phalangite - Kryten
Macedonian Hyspaspist - Kryten
Ancient Ship - Kryten
Companion Horseman - Kryten
Spear Immortal - Nemesis Rex
Egyptian Galley - aaglo
Egyptian Galleass - aaglo
Trireme - aaglo
Greek Archer - embryodead

I probably missed some, but that's quite a bit more than we need, I'd say.

I agree, but its always good to have options

There are, of course, some we don't have that would be awesome:
Mesopomian Spearman(Looks more Babylonian/Assyrian than the current one)
Some type of Scout unit. The Indian guy is way out of place and I'm afraid he'll get homesick. We could use a King unit - Ghandi maybe?
Assyrian Horseman
Phoenician Galley
Siege Engine(The Assyrians wrote the book on siege engines)

Well, that's all I can think of at the moment. Unit wise, we aren't too bad. I'll hold off on making up an actual unit list until I can look at the tech tree.

Techs

I've only played through once, so I don't have a real grasp of the tech tree. It seemed pretty good, though. I'll look at it when I get home, if I get a chance.

I do know they have Irrigation as a tech, which I don't like. The cities would never have been founded in the first place if the people didn't have some grasp of irrigation.

You have a point, plus, I've heard the AI doesn't prioritize getting these techs, and it hurts them. Maybe keep Mining as a tech, but get rid of Irrigation. I was thinking of a tech tree that had many changes (it added Archery from Warrior Code, and made Chariotry require Archery). I'll post it when I finish it.

Improvements

Again, they seemed fine to me. I'm not big on adding a whole lot of improvements. If there is better art out there for some of them, we'll use it.

Governments

We haven't really discussed this yet.

No we haven't, but they might need lots of work. I've heard several people say that Tribal Council hurts the AI (they go into anarchy when they can least afford it). Also, I think the Democracy of Athens should be considered. I'm also wondering about the possibilties of including Egyptian Theocracy.

Deserts

Calgacus is right - desert should be more hostile. Off the top of my head, I think that historically the Egyptians had only one city in the desert - Khartoum - and that was built on an oasis. The 'disease terrain' idea is good - but can we rename disease to "drought" or "famine"? Other than that, we should block city building in desert squares and raise the movement cost. Obviously, this will really isolate the Libyans, should we include them, but we could give them a special unit.

Like I said, I think most of the Desert should just be restricted from getting cities. I think some desert should be buildable, if its near fertile land, though (I don't think Jungle is being used, so you can use that).

Resources

I think we should add Tin, Copper, Flax, and Lumber. More resources never killed anybody.

More luxuries than 8 would be bad, but I definately agree about bonus resources.

Victory Conditions

If we have more civs, it's going to be harder to get the wonders built. I'm not even sure if I like this victory condition in the first place. We should go over this subject a little. IMO, domination makes for the most enjoyable game. Anyone have any other ideas?

Ideally, Wonder victory should be considered. I think we could make a much grander game without it, though. I can think of many more wonders I'd like to include that, right now, I was probably going to make a Small Wonder. Of course, with wonder victory turned off, the later tech tree need serious work to make better.

 

[kryszcztov]

I had seen this project some days ago, and I first feared someone would made what I wanted, but in fact this is far from my idea (Louis, you know).

Great idea to mod this scenario ! I've just completed it (my 1st C3C solo game), and I was happy to play it. It was quite refreshing actually, and I hope your project will be a nice experience too. Will you make it a proper long scenario, or just change stuff but keep the game short (160 turns) ?
As for my game, I ended up with a wonder victory on Emperor as Sumeria (I missed the Temple of Artemis, damn Phoenicians ).

Ahem, if Sumeria isn't in this project, then err... I would be sad. The creators of civilization ! I even wonder how I could pick another civ in this Conquest in the future... I like them so much. Please include Sumeria !

 

[Louis XXIV]

It all comes down to space. Even if Assyria only built upwards and Sumer built downwards, Babylon would not have a great territory to work with. If Assyria built downwards and Sumer built upwards (to limit an opponent from gaining territory and maximizing your territory), Babylon would be crushed into non-existance. With great culture and a good uu, it is possible Babylon will fight back and keep a good territory (hopefully conquer the non-militaristic Sumerians to have a large territory), but this could be too much to hope for.

If its any consolation, the legacy of Sumer would live on in Babylon, and their uu would be the perfect generic Warrior. And, of course, this isn't final yet.

 

[Costa e Silva]

Minoans: Astarte (Teodora)
Phoenicians: Small alteration in Lincoln



BTW: We need another Egyptian Leaderhead.




Gilgamesh. Nothing that remember the historical Gilgamesh.
I'm using this leaderhead like Abyssinians Leader, Menelik...
Perfect...

 

[Costa e Silva]

For Lincoln. I wanna say for Judeah...
Sorry.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I think we'd be better off getting someone to make a Solomon or David leaderhead. I don't think I could stand looking at Lincoln forever.

 

[Louis XXIV]

BUMPIDY, BUMP

 

[Louis XXIV]

Has this been abandoned?