Conscription in Republic

[MadScot]

OK, I'm curious to know if anyone else has the same interpretation as me.

(Appears to apply to both vanilla 1.29f and PTW 1.21f; I've not seen this mentioned before)

The Civilopedia page on Conscription appears to discriminate between "per city" and total conscription:

(my emphasis added)

To my reading, the Democracy and Republic civ may conscript one citizen per turn.
A Monarchy or Despotism civ may conscript two citizens per turn.
A Communist city may conscript two citizens per turn.

However, that's not (always) how the game works. If you open the city view while in, say, Republic (and have Nationalism, of course) you will have the little "conscript" icon. Click on that, and you get a conscript. Use the left/right arrows to move to the next city and there is no conscription icon!!. So it seems that the game enforces the "per civ" limit.

Now, back out of the city screen, and open F1 Domestic Advisor. Then click on a city. Conscription icon. Click it, then exit back to F1. Pick a new city - conscription icon!

So, if you simply scroll between cities, the game enforces the apparent (implied) civilopedia limit. If you use F1 you get the "per city" interpretation.

I'm wondering if anyone else reads the civilopedia the way I do? It seems to me that this buggy application is removing one of the (few) advantages of the Communist government type, and that people might be less willing to wage endless wars as Republicans if they could not draft so readily.

Any comments?

 

[pdescobar]

First comment: I've never intentionally drafted a unit so I have no experience in this.

I can see where you would read the civilopedia that way, however I must say that in the editor there is only a single "Draft Limit" setting so there is no obvious corresponding distinction within the BIC itself.

Does the behavior you see with republic (the sometimes disappearing icons) happen in Monarchy or Despotism after 2 conscripts too? Also, what about the right-click menu for a city. Do those ever go away?

 

[Sirp]

That's pretty clearly a game bug, however I don't think it's that big a deal, since conscription is rarely *that* important.

-Sirp.

 

[Shadylookin]

drafting is pretty usless cause you get left with a 2 hp unit, and if you just rush it you can get a 4 hp unit. the 1 higher draft rate isn't really an advantage in communism the advantage is no war warriness and less corruption in your outside cities

 

[JonathanValjean]

I don't consider it to be too big of a deal, because in republic, you will incur the wrath of the public if you draft much at all.

 

[Turner]

It's a city. Per city. I have done this before, to lower pop in my cities to avoid starvation, and you can do the maximum number per guv per city.

So if you're in republic/democracy, and you have fifteen cities, you can draft fifteen units, provided they are about the 6pop limit.

 

[Grille]

Yep, Turner is right.
I rarely use the draft. But if I do, I tend to draft units from more than one city in one turn while in republic. (I prefer size 12 cities w/o hospitals, but w/ a lot of happy people and relative high food production).
But I've also seen this buugy thing with that draft button when I scroll through city screens by using the arrow keys. However, I normally right click on a city to draft a unit.
There also used to be a another "bug" regarding the draft (IIRC former patch versions? - don't if it's still like this) : The conscript unit wasn't seen immediately in the garrison list on the city screen, when you just hit the draft button (as said, I like to "right-click-draft").
Anyway, IMHO it's the pedia that needs to be fixed, because drafting seems to work as intended.

 

[Turner]

Better, I think, that the Civilopedia says something inaccurate like this, than saying something else that's misleading. . . Like if you were trying to draft 15 people in 15 cities, but could only do one.

 

[Gainy]

The rules for conscription have always utterly confused me, hence i voted for the monkey thing...

 

[MadScot]

I agree that you can draft 15 pop from 15 cities with the current implementation if you do it the right way.

What I wonder is if they perhaps intended it to be more restrictive for non-commies during initial game design - i.e. implemented as the civilopedia would suggest - then 'simplified' it to the current state later - but forgot the civilopedia, and the arrow key city scrolling.

It would explain the bug perhaps.

And, IMO, it would be kind of sensible, since command-type economies should have considerably more control over their citizens, and be able to draft with abandon.

 

[Turner]

True, good point. Which is why Monarchy, Despotism and Communism allow 2 per city per turn, as opposed to one.

Keep in mind, Real World Anology, during the vietnam war, soldiers were drafted from wherever, not just one city.

 

[MadScot]

monarchies often had far less command over their citizens than modern day command economies. I don't see giving a middle ages government the same powers as soviet russia even close to realistic.

 

[pdescobar]

FWIW, I just ran a test in PTW1.21f. I went through Despotism, Democracy, and Republic, and every time I drafted from one city and scrolled to the next with the arrow keys, the icon was there for the next city....

Also, I looked in the manual. In the government sections (pp. 126-131) every government which allows a draft explicitly states "per city" so if there was initially a setup the same as your interpretation, it was gone before the manual went to print.

I kinda like your interpretation from a historical/realism perspective, but from a gameplay/balance standpoint I think the current implementation probably makes more sense. A simple explanation for this whole thing is, of course, that the civilopedia is just really poorly worded

 

[Grille]

Originally posted by MadScot

And, IMO, it would be kind of sensible, since command-type economies should have considerably more control over their citizens, and be able to draft with abandon.

As for more control over citizens for command-type govs, *IIRC* you could draft 3 units under communism in 1.07 (and I *think* the number is stated in the manual).
But I think they reduced that number for happiness reasons. AFAIK you get 1 unhappy citizen per drafted unit.
Maybe that penalty should be reduced to 1 unhappy face if one drafts two units in a city.

I'm not so sure what happens if you hit the draft button under communism. Do you get one unit and the draft button stays (so you could draft another unit - if you want to) or do you always get the maximum number of draft-able units (in this case 2 units, but also 2 unhappy faces)?

 

[bru]

I like the idea of per city application. Great way to manipulate populations.

 

[pdescobar]

Originally posted by Grille
I'm not so sure what happens if you hit the draft button under communism. Do you get one unit and the draft button stays (so you could draft another unit - if you want to) or do you always get the maximum number of draft-able units (in this case 2 units, but also 2 unhappy faces)?

You get one unit, but the button stays. If you draft again that turn to get a 2nd unit, the button goes.

 

[Turner]

Originally posted by bru
I like the idea of per city application. Great way to manipulate populations.

If you have plenty of lux's and the gold to keep them happy. Every unit you draft causes 20 turns of unhappiness in that city. So yes, while it may help stop an invasion, you pay for it later. I'm not sure if a civ that drafts a lot in response to an invasion has to deal with the draft weariness, tho.

It should be noted that if you're trying to control foreign population in your cities, these citizens do not get drafted. They can, however, be made into settler(not a good idea) or workers(not a bad idea).

 

[troytheface]

No one drafts? It is a powerful tool if used ....especially with infantry and mech. U send a swarm of conscripts in, the enemy attacks and makes regs out of a bunch, then ur main invasion stack comes in and pounds the enemy to pieces. I bet in multi player u could really use this to one's advantage against those that do not utilize this. A warmongerer's dream drafting is.
I read that most use it in an emergency-in defense- rather than as an offensive tactic-which emulates the real world fairly well...
armies have historically placed the draftees in front line positions
keeping their veterans in reserve.

 

[LordKestrel]

I like to use draftees from size 10-12 cities to rush improvements in newly conquered cities. Even if a city is in complete revolt, you can rush a temple/cathedral with disbanded draftees. Just make sure you don't draft too often from the same city, and ensure that you have lots of happiness being generated via improvements/luxuries/wonders.

 

[Sukenis]

While not all ways useful, there is a draft technique that is being overlooked. In Despotism, Monarchy, and Communism units make unhappy citizens content. In Communism conscripted units are regulars (At least I think they were at some time). Thus if you want to keep cities on a "far away" land and you do not have reserved units to fotify the city, you can draft and units. Those drfated units stopped as much unhappiness as they create (up to 4 in communism). Yes, you do have to deal with the unhappiness, but if the citizens of the city were killed in the onslaught, then there is less to worry about.

Also keep in mind that I have not done this in a while. It could be that patches changed how effective this now is.