Conservative Court of Appeals supports Federal gun infringement

In Jeelen's post, you see the capitalization of the word Arms. It is a good point. It emphasizes not muskets or rifles. It does not say "firearms". It says "Arms".

Arms are not guns. Arms are weapons. Militias are not government sponsored but citizen sponsored. A well organized militia requires that citizens have guns. I would argue that a well organized militia in America keeps its small arms--guns--decentralized, but registered, not allowed for purchase by criminals (that's not good organization). Maybe in cities people are so proximate a well organized militia means keeping the guns in a public armory, accessible when needed for threats or training.

Futhermore, a well organized militia, entitled and uninfringed to bear arms, deserves the rights to bear cannon, ships, horses, swords, and if you think I'm being facetious, what I actually mean is their 21st century counterparts. Bombs, artillery, rockets, tanks, armored vehicles, helicopters, machine guns, mortars, communication satellites, uniforms, fuel stores, etc. As the militia must be Well Regulated, those things are not appropriate for private ownership. Maybe machine guns and RPGs are of certain degrees, but as such would need further registration.

But what is registration. Reasonably, it would be given by the militia, with the method approved by the local government overseen by the state and federal government. It is not to infringe on the right to bear arms but to ensure standards of "well regulated" without infringing on militia.

OR

We are not defining militia as an entirely separate entity from The State's army and navy (and whatever). Rather it is a citizen's army as part of a citizen's Free State. In this regard, a Well Regulated Militia would be the best one, the Army. In this justification, to be a citizen in the militia would be inactive, non-conscriptive military participation, such that we are armed against threats foreign and domestic, but part of the national entity. In this regard, it is then completely up to the state to define what Well Regulated and Bear Arms mean. In that way, the State could restrict all private gun ownership so that the arms are closely guarded within the State's armories and chains of command.


I find both of these to be reasonable interpretations of the second amendment. It comes down to this: is our democracy inherently representative of the people so long as the Constitution is followed and therefore cannot be oppressive and thus never loses its legitimacy? I.E. is our Constitution the Leviathan so long as it can remain enacted (and therefore not the equivalent of a failed king) and therefore undefiable? If so, then there is no necessary justification for our Well Regulated Militia to inherently mean the peoples' right to bear arms is part of their private property rights. But if our Constitution is inherently fallible, i.e. it believes itself fallible, than the purpose of its second amendment is to therefore make certain that if the Constitution fails its purpose WITHIN the confines of Constitution, the citizens need be armed to protect themselves and The Free State.

Because if it is not fallible, if it is the Leviathan, it doesn't matter what our rights are arms wise against an oppressive government, we either obey the oppression as freedom, or we break the contract and we define our own rights and bear arms anyway.

But since the Constitution allows for the President to suspend Habeas Corpus in times of invasion, foreign and domestic, and that's a value call, it seems the Constitution knows it is fallible within its own framework.

With that in mind, I suspect the second amendment allows for an armed citizenry, with small arms held privately, and larger arms held in the militia's armory, but still legal to the militia that is outside of the army and navy.
 
It's just a bit of a moot point because militias have been all but institutionalized by now, and as it stands they are most assuredly not bring-your-own-gun.
 
It's just a bit of a moot point because militias have been all but institutionalized by now, and as it stands they are most assuredly not bring-your-own-gun.

I don't know much about militias in practice/modern times, other than the survivalist hard-right types, and the often assassinated or attacked left wing militias of labor and race-equality movements of 40-140 years ago.

Can you elaborate?
 
The National Guard is what I'm thinking of. True, it is an officially recognized reserve army, but it is organized by each of the 50 states and is often qualified as a state militia. This should be distinguished from the unorganized militia - which is every able-bodied man between 17 and 45 (in other words, everyone eligible for the draft - this is not mere coincidence).

So to put it plainly, the role of militia in the United States has all but been institutionalized, and in a way that has somewhat diminished the necessity and importance of the 2nd Amendment from the perspective of its original purpose.
 
Because you are either an adult or you aren't. If you aren't an adult, the state sending you overseas to fight and die for it should be a human rights violation. It is surely a human rights violation to send children overseas to die, is it not?
Being an adult is not an objectively observable attribute. In the legal sense, being adult just is a shorthand for having certain rights and obligations that adolescents don't have. If being adult is tied to a certain age, there's no reason to assume that all rights or obligations may only be recognized/required after a certain age. It's an arbitrary decision anyway, since human development doesn't line up neatly with age. So if you are granted access to certain privileges/rights only after a certain year, that year should be decided on its own terms, and doesn't necessarily have to align with others.

Being able to responsibly drink, handle a car, or handle a weapon are different things. It's not too far-fetched to require different degrees of maturity for it.
 
Why don't we just repeal the 2nd ammendment? What do we need it for anyhow. Oh--

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Being an adult is not an objectively observable attribute. In the legal sense, being adult just is a shorthand for having certain rights and obligations that adolescents don't have. If being adult is tied to a certain age, there's no reason to assume that all rights or obligations may only be recognized/required after a certain age. It's an arbitrary decision anyway, since human development doesn't line up neatly with age. So if you are granted access to certain privileges/rights only after a certain year, that year should be decided on its own terms, and doesn't necessarily have to align with others.

Being able to responsibly drink, handle a car, or handle a weapon are different things. It's not too far-fetched to require different degrees of maturity for it.

If anything, I'd think "Handling a weapon" would require more maturity than the others.
@Hygro


But since the Constitution allows for the President to suspend Habeas Corpus in times of invasion, foreign and domestic, and that's a value call, it seems the Constitution knows it is fallible within its own framework.

I really, really wish that part had not been put in the constitutino. Suspending those rights should NEVER be legal.
 
Why don't we just repeal the 2nd ammendment? What do we need it for anyhow. Oh--

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As a British person, I will make this announcement on behalf of Her Majesty.

We don't want the 13 colonies back, you guys are welcome to them.
 
I don't mind having the Thirteen Colonies back, as they have bearable accents and similar climate. You can keep the sprawling desert states though.
 
Worth noting, when the Second Amendment was written, those responsible had absolutely no intention of extending it to cover blacks or Indians (many of the latter being forcibly disarmed by colonial and state authorities, even when it meant poverty and starvation), and were frankly a little wary of allowing it cover Catholics and Jews. So its not really apparent that it was ever meant to provide an absolute guarantee of individual gun-ownership.

I don't mind having the Thirteen Colonies back, as they have bearable accents and similar climate. You can keep the sprawling desert states though.
You realise that the Thirteen Colonies extends a lot further South than New Jersey, don't you? :lol:
 
Yes, but it makes us seem even more generous when we give the southern colonies back and just hang onto New England. :)
 
Technically, they seceded from Great Britain, but hey.
 
I really, really wish that part had not been put in the constitutino. Suspending those rights should NEVER be legal.
I disagree. The Constitution is about a successful and enduring government. It's not a document of idealism. It seems idealistic because it promotes liberty more than almost any other regime at that time in the world (Netherlands, Switzerland, and England were the main contenders--Switzerland may have been more about political freedom than liberty though, which can be achieved even in dictatorship ala Leviathan monarchy).

But the founders understood that if we could not defend ourselves to the fullest in wartime, our nation would fail. It's unfortunate, because nowadays we can sustain "indefinite war" which is dangerous to our freedom, but in the time of invasions and rebellions and army-to-army wars it was absolutely necessary. Lincoln was a bit of a despot, but he was one of our greatest presidents who took our country so far forward it turned us into the reigning 20th century power. Not to give one president too much credit ;) BTW Lincoln falls very well in line with the Hayek-Friedman types who inspired today's bastardized version of Republican Party economic thought. But in terms of their politics and economy views, he is one of their own.
 
I'm happy to hear that we agree here :)

Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with this "You can have these adult privleges at this age but these other privleges only at this other age" stuff. In my opinion setting anything above 18 is absurd and takes paternalism way, way too far.

But if we're going to have a hierarchy, I'd say driving and drinking (Not at the same time:lol:) would come before weapons possession, and, hear me out on this, weapons possession should come before service in the military.

You might think they are the same, but being in the military, or at least ours (Germany doesn't seem to get into wars as often of late) is far, far more dangerous than owning your own weapon.

It was clearly a mistake to revolt from the United Kingdom. The USA was founded on nothing but sedition, now they are paying the price with several parts of that nation getting ready to break away.

This is the logical conclusion for anti-secessionists;)
I disagree. The Constitution is about a successful and enduring government. It's not a document of idealism. It seems idealistic because it promotes liberty more than almost any other regime at that time in the world (Netherlands, Switzerland, and England were the main contenders--Switzerland may have been more about political freedom than liberty though, which can be achieved even in dictatorship ala Leviathan monarchy).

I don't see anything I disagree with in this paragraph.
But the founders understood that if we could not defend ourselves to the fullest in wartime, our nation would fail

I can see that argument way back then. But I think its obsolete now. America is never going to be in total war again unless they create it for themselves (Which the neocons are already doing in the middle east, I fear, if I could snap my fingers and AOG one subgroup out of us politics, it would be them). I mean, we have enough nuclear power to eliminate ANYONE who dares directly threaten us, and our military budget is five times the second highest in the world (I think we could cut our defense budget to about 300 billion and still be quite safe TBH) so I don't really think we have anything to worry about militarily. We do, however, have this tendency to elect the kind of Presidents who are more than willing to compromise our liberties without good reason. Bush did plenty of it, and Obama has made it even worse. He's already suspended habeus corpus (The 2012 NDAA should have been an impeachable offense, altough of course the congress that passed the thing would never do that.) He's made TSA screenings so intrusive for those who fail the metal detectors or are "Random checked" that I don't see how anyone could argue that its not in violation of the fourth amendment. Because of what war?

FDR abused it to arrest the Japanese Americans in WWII. Wilson used it against political opponents in WWI. Lincoln did it in the Civil War. Adams did it. I don't see how you can argue ANY of those were actually justifiable?

And in a situation of total war, why would suspending habeus corpus be so useful anyway?

It's unfortunate, because nowadays we can sustain "indefinite war" which is dangerous to our freedom, but in the time of invasions and rebellions and army-to-army wars it was absolutely necessary.
As stated, it is surely not necessary now. And we've been in sham "Wars" for the last 10 years.

Honestly, I'd rather be a tad low on security than have leaders take advantage and leave us with no freedom. This is also why I support a far greater access to arms than you do. If the cop who was carrying out a warrantless arrest knew he would likely get killed while doing it, he might think twice. (Yes, I know this endangers "Legitimate" cops as well, but not quite as much because when unlawful arrests are attempted, cops make errors, or its a "War on drugs" type thing, people tend to side against the cops more. When we the people are supporting our law enforcement I think they'll be more successful than if everyone hates them and knows they are being crooks in a given case.)

Lincoln was a bit of a despot, but he was one of our greatest presidents who took our country so far forward it turned us into the reigning 20th century power. Not to give one president too much credit ;) BTW Lincoln falls very well in line with the Hayek-Friedman types who inspired today's bastardized version of Republican Party economic thought. But in terms of their politics and economy views, he is one of their own.

At least you admitted Lincoln was despotic and didn't assume that everything he did was somehow magically pro-liberty when it didn't.

To me, though, I look at all the good in the world and a lot of bad and still say that's bad. The ends don't justify the means for me, and honestly I don't think Lincoln deserves one iota of credit for liberating the slaves. If Lincoln truly cared about the slaves he should have used the CSA secession as a gateway to freeing all the slaves still in the Union. Instead, he freed all the slaves he DIDN'T control and used that as political motivation to smash the South even more. That combined with the right of secession (I consider the civil war 100% illegitimate) and the suspensions of Democracy under Lincoln make me rate him fairly lowly. I'd take him over Bush or Obama but he wasn't as good as Reagan and he wasn't even in the same ballpark as guys like Coolidge or Jefferson.
 
You might think they are the same, but being in the military, or at least ours (Germany doesn't seem to get into wars as often of late) is far, far more dangerous than owning your own weapon.

Interesting theory.

We do, however, have this tendency to elect the kind of Presidents who are more than willing to compromise our liberties without good reason. Bush did plenty of it, and Obama has made it even worse. He's already suspended habeus corpus (The 2012 NDAA should have been an impeachable offense, altough of course the congress that passed the thing would never do that.) He's made TSA screenings so intrusive for those who fail the metal detectors or are "Random checked" that I don't see how anyone could argue that its not in violation of the fourth amendment. Because of what war?

The war on terror. Habeas corpus was already de facto suspended by the Patriot Act, in the wake of which citizens were being abducted and held without trial (or even proper accusation). The reasoning behind this was absurd: they were (are!) being held by US personnel on US territory, yet the claim is that somehow doesn't entitle the to a legal trial. To make matters worse, foreign governments lend a willing hand in bringing these non-accused to their place of captivity.
 
Custom preceded the Constitution and that certainly "informed" the Framers, but this law violates every aspect of the 2nd Amendment - it bans sales to people old enough to serve the state. How does that not infringe upon the states and their security and the right of the people?

Therein lies the problem for me, rights belong to people, not states... It just aint logical to argue the only right mentioned in the 2nd Amendment which belongs to the people is actually a state's "right" to have militias - and then based on that, argue the Feds can ban sales to "the people" who may serve in those militias.

The 2nd Amendment makes no mention of sales; it does specifically mentions "a well regulated militia" - which ofcourse is pointless if unarmed; hence they need to keep and bear arms. It seems rather obvious that the writers didn't foresee the massive arms trade in the US today. But perhaps you prefer your arms trade unregulated?

Because you are either an adult or you aren't. If you aren't an adult, the state sending you overseas to fight and die for it should be a human rights violation. It is surely a human rights violation to send children overseas to die, is it not?

You seem to have answered your own question.

The USA was founded on nothing but sedition, now they are paying the price with several parts of that nation getting ready to break away.

The "right" of states to secede was clearly denied in Confederation vs Union 1861-'65.

You might think they are the same, but being in the military, or at least ours (Germany doesn't seem to get into wars as often of late) is far, far more dangerous than owning your own weapon.

Interesting theory.

We do, however, have this tendency to elect the kind of Presidents who are more than willing to compromise our liberties without good reason. Bush did plenty of it, and Obama has made it even worse. He's already suspended habeus corpus (The 2012 NDAA should have been an impeachable offense, altough of course the congress that passed the thing would never do that.) He's made TSA screenings so intrusive for those who fail the metal detectors or are "Random checked" that I don't see how anyone could argue that its not in violation of the fourth amendment. Because of what war?

The war on terror. Habeas corpus was already de facto suspended by the Patriot Act, in the wake of which citizens were being abducted and held without trial (or even proper accusation). The reasoning behind this was absurd: they were (are!) being held by US personnel on US territory, yet the claim was that somehow that doesn't entitle them to legal trial. To make matters worse, foreign governments lend a willing hand in bringing these non-accused to their place of captivity.
 
Don't get me wrong, I don't agree with this "You can have these adult privleges at this age but these other privleges only at this other age" stuff. In my opinion setting anything above 18 is absurd and takes paternalism way, way too far.

But if we're going to have a hierarchy, I'd say driving and drinking (Not at the same time:lol:) would come before weapons possession, and, hear me out on this, weapons possession should come before service in the military.

You might think they are the same, but being in the military, or at least ours (Germany doesn't seem to get into wars as often of late) is far, far more dangerous than owning your own weapon.
Incidentally, the purchase of alcohol, obtaining a driver's license and buying a gun (I think, I don't really care) are all legal at 18 in Germany (you can buy beer and wine with 16 already though). 18 was also the age in which you were conscripted (until conscription was abolished).

But I think it's justifiable to allow people to buy a gun at later ages than the other things. If 18 is the best "maximum year" is a whole other discussion. I agree that it's hypocritical to send people into wars but not consider them mature enough to handle their own weapon, but if limitations on gun ownership are motivated by the protection of the public, it makes sense from a pure personal responsibility point of view.
 
I agree that it's hypocritical to send people into wars but not consider them mature enough to handle their own weapon, but if limitations on gun ownership are motivated by the protection of the public, it makes sense from a pure personal responsibility point of view.

Well, I was posting from the American perspective of a "Right to bear arms" and you know my personal views of gun control, but I wasn't talking about laws that don't allow civilians to have certain weapons or require some special license to do so.

I was talking specifically about age. If you are an adult at 18, and you should be allowed to own a pistol, you should be allowed to own one at 18. YMMV.
 
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