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Constitution Discussion: Article D, Executive Branch

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Demo Game V: Citizens' started by DaveShack, Jun 30, 2004.

  1. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    This thread is to focus discussion on the executive branch, mostly how many advisors and their functions.

    My proposal (slightly modified from DG4, and also modified somewhat from the constitution general discussion thread)
    Code:
    Article D.  The Executive branch is responsible for determining 
                and implementing the will of the People. It is headed
                by the President who shall be the primary Designated 
                Player. The President shall take direction from a 
                council of leaders and from other elected and appointed 
                officials.
                  1.  The Minister of Internal Affairs shall be 
                      responsible for all domestic and cultural 
                      initiatives, as prescribed by law.
                  2.  The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible
                      for matters involving treaties with foreign nations, 
                      as prescribed by law.
                  3.  The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for all
                      military strategy and troop activities, as 
                      prescribed by law.
                  4.  The Minister of Trade and Technology shall be 
                      responsible for all tech acquisition and trade 
                      initiatives, as prescribed by law.
                  5.  The Minister of Finance and Labor shall be responsible
                       for the allocation of monies in all forms except as part
                       of trades which fall under the authority of the Minister
                       of Trade and Technology; and for prioritization of
                       worker tasks and assignment of workers to tasks.
    
    This example was provided by Epimethius.
    Code:
    Article D.  The Executive branch is responsible for determining 
                and implementing the will of the People. It is headed
                by the President who shall be the primary Designated 
                Player. The President shall take direction from a 
                council of leaders and from other elected and appointed 
                officials via the turnchat instruction thread.[i]
                  1.  The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be 
                      responsible for all domestic initiatives, as well as
                      the distribution of funds, as prescribed by law.
                  2.  The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible
                      for matters involving treaties with foreign nations, 
                      as prescribed by law.
                  3.  The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for all
                      military strategy and troop activities, as 
                      prescribed by law.
                  4.  The Minister of Trade shall be responsible for all 
                      trade, domestic and foreign, and the use of resources,
                      as perscibed by law.
                  5.  The Misister of Technology shall be 
                      responsible for all tech acquisition, as prescribed by law.
                  6.  The Minister of Culture shall be responsible for the
                      keeping of the peace and the construction of wonders.
                  7.  The President, and all his Ministers, are elected on a
                      regular basis by the National Assembly, and may be 
                      recalled by that body, to be replaced by a deputy.[/i]
    
    
    This one was provided by Ravensfire
    Code:
    Article H.  Executive Branch
    The Executive branch is responsible for determining and 
    implementing the will of the People. It is headed by the 
    President who shall take direction from a Council of 5 
    Leaders and from other elected and appointed officials via 
    the game session instruction thread.
    
    The President shall be responsible for establishing the 
    game play schedule, uses of Great Leaders, conducting 
    discussions on worker actions, and any matter not covered 
    by another elected official.
    
    The Minister of Internal Affairs is responsible determining 
    city placement, settler movement, provincial borders, 
    construction of Great and Small Wonders, serving as 
    Governor for any city not controlled by a Governor, 
    monitoring overall cultural and happiness levels and 
    coordinate the efforts of Governors on National Projects.
    
    The Minister of Finance is responsible for the slider 
    settings and approving all uses of cash.
    
    The Minister of Foreign Affairs is responsible for matters 
    involving non-trade treaties with foreign nations and all 
    non-technology espionage activities.
    
    The Minister of Defense is responsible for all military 
    strategy and troop activities.
    
    The Minister of Trade and Technology is responsible for all 
    technology acquisitions (including through steals) and 
    trade initiatives.
    
    The President and each Minister shall determine any 
    policies and procedures needed to carry out their duties.
    
     
  2. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Deity

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    i believe ravensfire is best, because of 2 reasons:
    1. Epimethius left off The Finace Minister and broke up too much stuff
    2. Rf has the president in charge of workers, which I believe to be good
     
  3. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Governors should be part of the executive branch as well.
     
  4. Sarevok

    Sarevok Civ3 Scenario Creator

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    Why is that?
     
  5. Epimethius

    Epimethius Wish I Hadn't Been Here

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    Revised version:

    Code:
    Article D.  The Executive branch is responsible for determining 
                and implementing the will of the People. It is headed
                by the President who shall be the primary Designated 
                Player. The President shall take direction from a 
                council of leaders and from other elected and appointed 
                officials via the turnchat instruction thread.  The
                president is responsible for worker distribution, as advised
                by his ministers
                  1.  The Minister of Domestic Affairs shall be 
                      responsible for all domestic initiatives, as well as
                      the distribution of funds (slider settings), as 
                      prescribed by law.
                  2.  The Minister of Foreign Affairs shall be responsible
                      for matters involving treaties with foreign nations, 
                      as prescribed by law.
                  3.  The Minister of Defense shall be responsible for all
                      military strategy and troop activities, as 
                      prescribed by law.
                  4.  The Minister of Trade shall be responsible for all 
                      trade, domestic and foreign, and the use of resources,
                      as perscibed by law.
                  5.  The Misister of Technology shall be responsible for
                      all tech acquisition, as prescribed by law.
                  6.  The Minister of Culture shall be responsible for the
                      keeping of the peace, naming of cities, and the 
                      construction of wonders.
                  7.  The President, and all his Ministers, are elected on a
                      regular basis by the National Assembly, and may be 
                      recalled by that body, to be replaced by a deputy.
                  8.  Governors, who will be elected each term by their
                      constituants, are responsible for the city production
                      queues and labourer placement within their assigned
                      province.
    Governor are executive as they actually carry out (execute) things, like the ministers do. They are local executive, rather than national.
     
  6. truckingpete

    truckingpete On a Stark Trek

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    I have to say Ravensfire is good too....
     
  7. burning_phoneix

    burning_phoneix Chieftain

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    Ravensfire is the most detailed one, clearly marking each Minister's duty. Epimethius' breaks the executive branch into too many parts.
     
  8. Epimethius

    Epimethius Wish I Hadn't Been Here

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    The point of mine is that it divides the branch into a number of diverse parts for a wide range of people, from imcompentant and lazy (Culture) to hard working and experianced (Domestic), rather than depending on a large number of experianced and committed people, which would result in the same people holding the same offices for a while. I could try clarifying things further, though.
     
  9. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Careful there, one of our founding members started off in Culture, and was among the most hard working and capable citizens we've had.
     
  10. Epimethius

    Epimethius Wish I Hadn't Been Here

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    I know, I want to go for Culture too. I guess Tech would be easier. Just decide what to research.
     
  11. gert-janl

    gert-janl Alive!!!

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    I don't agree. I believe that governors should not be part of the executive branch as their tasks fall under the jurisdiction of the minister of Internal Affairs. Therefore I think that the governors should be part of the ministry of Internal Affairs rather than the executive counsel. That way there can be a lot more communication between the governors and ministry of internal affairs. For example if the minister wants to build the Pyramids in a certain city, he should approach the governor of that province and should talk about the possibility of that. Also can interprovincial discussions be chaired by the minister of Internal Affairs.
     
  12. Sarevok

    Sarevok Civ3 Scenario Creator

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    He does have a bit of a point though. Probably 80% or higher of who was in office in DGIV had been players in previous Democracy Games. We do need to give new players the chance to show their skills (or errors).
     
  13. Rik Meleet

    Rik Meleet Top predator Retired Moderator

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    From Ravensfire's entry:
    I'd like to have included in this some rule on having buildqueues (which are set by the Governors) approved or disapproved by the MIA. Especially (or only) in "National Projects".

    In DG3 and DG4 some "National Projects" were: 'the size-12-plan', 'huge military buildup', 'Space Race' and some others. Unfortunately some governors chose their own path, which hampered us.
    Random idea: MIA can propose to call something a "national Program" which the citizens get to vote on. If something is called "NAtional Program", then the MIA has the power to over-rule Governors buildqueues who aren't contributing.
     
  14. gert-janl

    gert-janl Alive!!!

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    That sounds very good.:) The MIA should be able to overrule governors as he can see the broad, national perspective while the governor is mostly concerned more with his own province.
     
  15. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Is this needed? I don't think so. It's redundant if we use the laws that already exist, and enforce them.

    From our Constitution, we require all leaders to follow the will of the people. If we have a poll for a national project that clearly defines the will of the people, posted by a leader who normally would coordinate/run that type of project, wouldn't a governor (or another leader) be violating their duty to support the will of the people?

    In general, I despise allowing officials to override build queues. It's a power that is easily abused, and is insulting to the leader who got overridden. Personally, you override a queue of mine once, it's yours from then on. Our officials should be able to persuade through reason that a queue should be changed. If the instructions from a leader do not reflect the will of the people, call them on it, or call the Judiciary on it.

    Don't allow overrides. It's not right. It's not polite. It's not democratic.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  16. Rik Meleet

    Rik Meleet Top predator Retired Moderator

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    Raven: I agree, but not overriding them forces the DP and the nation to do things against their will. If city A is supposed to be building the FP, but the Governor instructs to build a unit instead (misread, slip-of-the-mind, wrong copy-paste, stubborn Gov), a CC is to be held.
    That has several nasty consequences; either the DP follows the instructions or the chat is stopped before it even begins.
    We get a flood of CC's. DG 4 has shown that CC's aren't dealt with quickly enough.
    The Judiciary gets to do too much work no-one is waiting for.
    The legal mumbo-jumbo takes a too dominant position in the game, forcing players who aren't into that to leave (ok it will attract lawyer-type players).

    Why not turn it around; correcting the alleged-offender and let him go to court if he feels wrongly treated?

    I am envisioning this as a discussion between the MIA and the Governors who should build what; with comments from the Citizens.
    I am only talking about "national programmes", not ordinary things. If the nation really wants something, it shouldn't be blocked by a Governor. The Governor setting the buildqueues is the most un-democratic part of the DG; I'd like to see that becoming more democratic. Perhaps my way isn't the best way; but it is a start.
     
  17. Sarevok

    Sarevok Civ3 Scenario Creator

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    I agree. With governors that I will not name, I had hell when I asked for military buildups against Babylon in our first war with them when I was the Minister of Defense. This is something that should be included as if governors do not do what they should do that is the good of the state (and its people) then there should be the ability for someone to ovveride them.
     
  18. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    We had over-rides in DG1 and they caused more problems than they solved. Let's not take another step back. Governors like every other leader are bound by the constitution to follow the *will of the people*. I agree that if they don't do what they're supposed to then there should be recourse to get them in line with the *will of the people*. We must be careful though. Just because the Military Leader wants more military units and a governor doesn't comply does not necessarily mean the governor is flouting the *will of the people*. Let's remember that the peple are quite capable of asking the military leader to do one thing and the governors to do another. What we need is not over-ride capabilities but a judiciary that could make rulings and post appropriate game play instructions to enforce said rulings. If the military leader thinks a governor is not building units when he should then the military leader should be able to take the issue to the judiciary and get a quick ruling as to whether the governor is right or wrong.
     
  19. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    Sarevok is asking why Governors should be in the executive branch. Well, ere else would you put them? The Judicial branch? The Legislative branch? An entirely new branch?

    It seems to me that their function is executive in nature and therefore they should be in the executive branch.
     
  20. Sarevok

    Sarevok Civ3 Scenario Creator

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    If we are fighting for our lives against Babylon and we need units yet the governor decides that temples is more important, he deserves to be sacked. We were lucky to hold Babylon off with the forces we had, let alone take the offensive and take those luxuries. There has to be some sort of way that the governors can be overriden in order to go for absolute needs. This sort of "absolute need" would almost always be a demand for military units for a ongoing war. There is no place for a governor to put Fanatica at risk by not aiding his nation when the need was absolutely dire.
     

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