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Constitution Discussion : Article G, Elections, Deputies, and Vacancies

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Demo Game V: Citizens' started by DaveShack, Jul 8, 2004.

  1. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    There have been quite a few discussions on deputies and how to fit vacancies. This thread will serve as the official discussion on those topics.

    Here is the starting point example from the general discussion thread.
    Code:
    Article G.  All elected positions shall have a fixed term. The runner
                up in each election (if one exists) shall be the deputy for
                that position.  Any office which is left vacant at the end
                of an election due to no candidates accepting a nomination
                or due to all candidates withdrawing shall be filled by
                appointment by the highest ranking leader of a citizen to
                fill the position.  Any elected position which becomes
                permanently vacant, such that the official will not return,
                shall be filled first by the deputy for that position, or by
                appointment of a citizen to fulfill the remainder of the term.
                Vacant deputy positions shall be filled by appointment by the
                leader of a citizen to fill the deputy position.
    
    From Epimethius, this article touches on some of the points
    Code:
    Article H.  No person shall hold multiple positions of leadership 
                in the same branch of givernment simultaneously.  No person
                may be a leader of one office and deputy of a different office
                in the same branch simultaneously.  The President, Vice 
                President and Chief Justice may not hold any other 
                elected office or deputy position.
    
    From Ravensfire, all the concepts plus a little more, in several Articles
    Code:
    Article D.  Terms and Appointments
    All elected positions have a fixed term of one month, 
    beginning on the first day of the month (GMT), and must be 
    filled by a citizen of Fanatica.  All elected officials, 
    except the Judiciary, shall appoint as deputy a citizen.  
    All elected positions that become vacant must be filled by 
    appointing the deputy to that office, or should no deputy 
    exist for that position, any citizen, by the President to 
    fulfill the remainder of the term.
    
    Vacancies in the Judiciary will be filled by the President 
    and the remaining members of the Judiciary acting in 
    concert to appoint citizens to the Judiciary.
    
    Article E.  Elections
    Elections for all Executive Branch, Judicial Branch and 
    Provincial Governorships shall be held monthly.  Elections 
    shall be conducted by the Election Office and supervised by 
    the Judiciary.  Nominations and debates will open 7 days 
    before the new term.  Election polls being posted 4 days 
    before the new term and will remain open for 3 days.  
    Citizens will be allowed to run for more than two offices in
    any given term.
    
    There will be one poll for each office.  The Judiciary 
    election will be a single poll for all choices, configured 
    as a multiple choice poll, with the candidate receiving 
    the most votes becoming the Chief Justice.
    
    All ties are to be handled by run-off elections initiated 
    immediately following the close of the initial polls and 
    will last for two days.  This process may be repeated as 
    needed.
    
    Article F.  Multiple Offices
    No citizen shall hold multiple positions of leadership 
    (President, Minister, Justice, Provincial Governor, or 
    deputy for those positions) simultaneously, whether elected 
    or appointed to the position.  
    
    Points for discussion:

    • Should we have runners-up as deputies, appointed deputies, or no deputies?
    • Should we let people hold more than one office, in particular leader in one branch and deputy in another?
    • How should vacancies be handled? Can we please define exactly when a vacancy occurs so we don't have a repeat of the DG4T1 judicial elections?
    • Any thing else?
     
  2. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    Article G looks good. It deals with Vacancies well, but I don't care for the way Deputies are put into service. Article D covers this much better.

    I don't care for the "in the same branch of givernment simultaneously" aspect of Article H, and I believe Article F handles that situation much better.

    Article E doesn't sit that well with me as I don't think the Judiciary should oversee the Elections (see DG4T1). I believe the Moderators should oversse the elections. We DEFINATELY need to get some regulations going on the Election Office if they are to be used. Also, citizens should only be able to run for one Office each Term. We need to keep these Vet players from running for 2 or 3 Offices at a time and saturating the ballots. That kind of action discourages new players from running for Office. Plus it's a little sissy way of obtaining Office. Just pick an Office you want to run for and do it. Running for 2 or more Offices, hoping you'll be lucky enough to snag one is a sorry means of gaining a political positon.
     
  3. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    I personaly like Artical G
     
  4. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    I knew you were going to say that CG. :)
     
  5. Noldodan

    Noldodan 2 years of waiting...

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    But, what if, say, an elected official disappears before appointing a deputy? Just imagine the chaos (Serlie province, T5). I see that still no one's given thought to my proposal: Having the deputy be the runner-up until the Leader appoints one.
     
  6. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Deity

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    i think articles D-F sums up the election process better
     
  7. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Please identify the proposals by their author. Think I've got them straight, but not positive. :crazyeye:
     
  8. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    Actually, Noldodan, your proposal is the way I'd like to see it. The Deputy position would be covered immediately, but niether the Leader or the Deputy would be trapped into accepting the situation. It's a good proposal.
     
  9. Epimethius

    Epimethius Wish I Hadn't Been Here

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    Runner up. Make the leader live with a runner up he doesn't like. Then he wouldn't be so inclined to leave. ;)
     
  10. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    I wonder why you said that Cyc ;).

    Anyway. In looking over on the suggested articles for elections. I would personaly have to disagree with Article H. I feel that a persion should hold a deputy and a leader possition but make it restrictive that the persion should only hold 1 deputy possition if one is a leader.
     
  11. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    I don't know. I think that, for too long, we've degraded the status of the deputy. In the past, these positions were always easy to come by, mainly because they came as a result of an unfavorable result in and election.

    It seems to me that the best way we can increase participation is to both have deputies appointed, or maybe even elected outright just as a normal ministerial position is. Also, a person shouldn't be a leader and deputy at the same time. This makes one actually have to work to get and hold on to the deputy's spot.

    In short, the leader and deputy should have to be active citizens in their respective departments. Using the runner up system, and allowing one to hold leader/deputy spots simultaneously does not further this goal.
     
  12. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    If we had a big enough supply of citizens willing to do work, there would be no need to contemplate letting someone be a leader in one branch and a deputy in another, or even hold multiple leader positions. If we went back to 6 ministers / advisors, we need a minimum of 19 active players to fill every leadership and deputy position (president, vp, 6 leaders, 6 deputies, 3 justices, 1 governor, 1 deputy governor). Add in the F&L position and we need 21. For most of DG4 we went with most deputy positions open, and in fact there were terms where at least one of the advisor positions went unfilled for a good percentage of the term.
     
  13. Sarevok

    Sarevok Civ3 Scenario Creator

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    I am also hoping that the ability to sack deputies that do not do their job be included somewhere in this constitution.
     
  14. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    I personaly dont see the need to have the ability to sack deputies that do not do there job. If that was done, then it would discurage any new players from staying.
     
  15. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Deity

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    :eek: Then a deputy could do bogus stuff and it would require weeks(hopefully not) for a CC to go through
     
  16. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    Though my reasons against sacking deputies came from experiance when (I wont name any people) someone posted a refusal poll on me to sack me as Lt Govenor when term 2 just started (Jan 31, 2004).
     
  17. Sarevok

    Sarevok Civ3 Scenario Creator

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    I remember that, And I remember who it was. The reason I would want to sack a deputy I would have is if I told them to post instructions, and they did not do it. I would want to remove them for not doing their job as a deputy can be a great asset to a leader or completely useless.
     
  18. GenMarshall

    GenMarshall Night Elven Ghost Agent

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    I would understand on sacking a deputy if he/she failed to post the instructions if the leader asked the deputy. But what if the deputy had a good reason for not posting the instructions such as an emergency medical duties in his/her family. I personaly dont want to sack the deputy if he/she failed to post the instructions once with an excuse. Personaly, I am a forgiving persion and would give the deputy two chances so long as there is a reasonable excuse.

    I also fear that sacking deputies would be used for the wrong reasons for just getting rid of a deputy dispite what happened in the past (The attempt to sack me as Lt Govnenor at the start of the Elections). As I said before, I am a forgiving persion and will give a persion a chance in every turn to redeam him/herself. I personaly dont want to sack my deputy because of his/her past of not doing a good job. If he/she is going to commit to doing a good job and redeam themselves, I would give them a chance.
     
  19. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    You can name names. It won't hurt my feelings. Yes, it was me who asked for the refusal poll against CG. My memory is just as long as anyone elses. Perhaps I was inspired by something that had happened in an earlier incarnation when CG was my deputy...
     
  20. Sarevok

    Sarevok Civ3 Scenario Creator

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    inspired? Do I want to know about this? :p
     

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