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Constitution Poll - Polls, Amendments, and Quorum

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Demo Game V: Polls' started by Chieftess, Feb 6, 2005.

?

Do you accept this proposal?

Poll closed Feb 10, 2005.
  1. Yes

    66.7%
  2. No

    20.0%
  3. Abstain

    13.3%
  1. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

    Joined:
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    Do you approve of this suggestion for the section of the constitution? If this passes, it will go into a formal writing stage. As there was only 1 general proposal, it will be a "Do you accept?" poll. Discussion was here.


    Code:
    1. All polls shall be public except those types of polls which are specifically designated by law as being required to be private.
    2. The following types of polls, which have the purpose of choosing and/or judging individuals, shall be private.
    a. Elections
    b. Polls confirming or denying appointments
    c. Polls to determine guilt or innocence.
    d. Polls to determine sentencing
    3. Only registered citizens are authorized to vote in polls. The results of public polls may be checked against the citizen registry, and votes by people who are not registered may be deducted from the poll results. Any citizen may challenge the result of a private poll by requesting the moderators to verify citizenship of all persons voting, and adjust the vote totals accordingly.
    
    4. Amendments to the constitution require (a 2/3 majority of all votes cast), or (a simple majority of all votes cast and a number of votes cast more than 60% of the census). The census is the lesser of the average number of votes cast for all offices in the most recent election, or 80% of the number of votes cast in the most recent ratification vote, or 80% of the votes cast in a quorum vote called for the purpose of establishing a true census.
    
    Census:
    -- DG5: census was average number of votes in contested elections
    
    Quorum:
    -- DG5: 2/3 of census for Constitution
    -- DG5: 37% of census for CoL
    
    Approval:
    -- DG5: 67% of non-abstain votes must approve
    -- DG5: 55% of votes must approve
    
     
  2. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2003
    Messages:
    13,108
    Location:
    Arizona, USA (it's a dry heat)
    Thank you for starting this poll, it is indeed the first one we should work on. :D

    The quote in the 1st post took away all the formatting. For the benefit of the voters, here is a formatted version.

    1. All polls shall be public except those types of polls which are specifically designated by law as being required to be private.
    2. The following types of polls, which have the purpose of choosing and/or judging individuals, shall be private.
      • Elections
      • Polls confirming or denying appointments
      • Polls to determine guilt or innocence.
      • Polls to determine sentencing
    3. Only registered citizens are authorized to vote in polls. The results of public polls may be checked against the citizen registry, and votes by people who are not registered may be deducted from the poll results. Any citizen may challenge the result of a private poll by requesting the moderators to verify citizenship of all persons voting, and adjust the vote totals accordingly.
    4. Amendments to the constitution require (a 2/3 majority of all votes cast), or (a simple majority of all votes cast and a number of votes cast more than 60% of the census). The census is the lesser of the average number of votes cast for all offices in the most recent election, or 80% of the number of votes cast in the most recent ratification vote, or 80% of the votes cast in a quorum vote called for the purpose of establishing a true census.
    background information
    Census:
    -- DG5: census was average number of votes in contested elections

    Quorum:
    -- DG5: 2/3 of census for Constitution
    -- DG5: 37% of census for CoL

    Approval:
    -- DG5: 67% of non-abstain votes must approve
    -- DG5: 55% of votes must approve
     
  3. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

    Joined:
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    Chicago
    I will accept this as a starting point, but strongly disagree with allowing the Constitution to be changed by a simple majority vote, no matter how many citizens participate. If we have a contentious issue that strongly divides the nation (let's say spot votes in the chat), the minority in a 51-49% vote would be disenfranchised.

    But we can figure this out in the formal writing stage. I'll vote YES.
     
  4. Black_Hole

    Black_Hole Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2004
    Messages:
    3,424
    even though we know this applies to CCs:
    Shouldnt we say something like:
    also on the constitution ratifacation it should be 2/3 majority and a majority of the census voting... not either... the constitution shouldnt be easy to change at all

    edit: cross posted with DZ, but I am voting no.
    I believe what we are doing now is exactly what will be in the formal writing stage.
     
  5. MOTH

    MOTH Emperor

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    1,676
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    mostly lurking
    I voted no on the sole issue of Public vs Private polls. I could accept this for Elected Officialls, but private citizens should be able to post either type at their own choice.
     
  6. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I thought that we came to closure during discussion that this would apply to any poll which is binding, and not to purely informational polls. Please be sure to bring this up when we do the formal language phase. I'll try to remember, if I even have the free time to be driving it then, but its easier if you raise it yourself to keep us honest.
     
  7. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Thanks, that gives me a good way to phase my argument in favor of allowing amendments with a simple majority. :D

    With a higher approval requirement, for example the 2/3 which has been used in the past, and with high quorum levels, it is the majority who get disenfranchised, because their choice is not followed. There is nothing more aggravating than having 83% approval for a change but falling one vote short of the quorum. Well, the situation in the U.S. Senate where one member can tie something up by refusing to stop debating it is close.

    The parallel between this environment and real constitutions is a bogus argument. There is a difference between rules for a game which is over in less than a year and laws in RL which are expected to last RL centuries.

    But, as you say it can still be debated during final discussions. :D
     
  8. blackheart

    blackheart unenlightened

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    No more filibustering tactics can be used then :(
     
  9. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

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    Funny, Dave, but I never mentioned RL in my argument. :confused: ;)

    The 2/3 majority should not be messed with, and lowering the quorum to 50% of the census should take care of the scenario you mentioned. As far as the Constitution goes, a 17-2 outcome beats a 29-28 vote when it comes to representing the people.

    Remember, we want a Constitution that best represents our entire people. We cannot have that if we let a slim majority dictate how they should be represented. But there I go, digressing into RL again.............. :groucho: :lol:
     
  10. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Oops, got my streams crossed, that was probably a debate in a previous virtual life, maybe DG5 setup? :lol:
     
  11. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Strongly disagree.

    First problem - this is one poll trying to decide two seperate issues. Where's that blasted PSC when we need it? Should have been two seperate polls, one for polls, one for amendments.

    Second problem - this poll is skipping the decision phase. Where are the other options provided? The poll author dictated the choice, removing the opportunity for people to make a choice on this. A better approach would have been to poll the various options, with the proposal receiving the highest vote totals becoming the approved method.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  12. Chieftess

    Chieftess Moderator Retired Moderator

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    Well, this poll got 2/3 of the vote exactly. Now we can start polling other amendments. Remember that we can even amend this poll later, or, post that all turnchat instructions must have discussions and polls. No need to be redundant.
     

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