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Constitutional Amendment: Treaty Ratification

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Multi-site Demo Game: High Council' started by Octavian X, Dec 29, 2003.

?

Do you accept the proposed amendment to the constitution outlined in the first post?

Poll closed Jan 5, 2004.
  1. YES

    5 vote(s)
    38.5%
  2. NO

    8 vote(s)
    61.5%
  1. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    Discussion on this amendment may be found here.

    Our constitution may be found here.

    This amendment deals with Article O of the Fanatikese Constitution.

    It should specifically make the following change, from:

    To:

    This poll shall be open for seven days. At that point, if it has reached quorum, the constitutional shall be amended. A minimum of 13 votes in the affirmitive is required to pass this proposal.
     
  2. Ankka

    Ankka Chieftain

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    I strongly support this. :)
     
  3. Cheetah

    Cheetah Chieftain

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    It looks good, but are you sure we shouldn't have a clause allowing the Pres to sign a treaty in an urgent situation?
     
  4. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Warlord Super Moderator

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    A quorum equal to the current active census? That would mean that every ratification poll would have to have approximately 19 votes to pass (+/- 2). The poll for the alliance with Poly would have failed under those conditions, and it would be very hard for other ratification polls to pass. Therefore, I will vote No to this amendment.

    However, the rest of the amendment looks good to me, but I think the quorum clause should be stricken or modified to 1/2 or perhaps 2/3 of the current active census.
     
  5. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Voting no for the same reasons as Cheetah.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  6. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    I considered that, but wanted to stay away from giving the President such unilateral power. I'd at least recommend a council vote. Let's then use this thread for a little more discussion.

    Boots:
    Under current conditions, the Apolytonian treaty is still illegal. An additional council vote was needed.

    The quorum clause refers to the active census. The constitution defines the active census as the average number of votes in the most recent eletion cycle. The total number of votes needed would be less than 13. That's the quorum, mind you. NOT the required number of yes votes.
     
  7. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Octavian,

    Given the pace this game is capable of, especially with the reduced number of teams, some type of "emergency" powers are needed. There have been times where we have been justifiably criticised for moving slow. There are times for that, but there are also times for faster decisions.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  8. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    I recognize that. However, I'm against giving the President, as that positon exists currently, power to that degree. With the apporval of another elected offical, maybe such emergency powers can be granted. But, signing treaties on his own? Never.

    I know that, from past experience, Presidents will have unpopular views. Had I such power during my terms as President, we would be much closer to Apolyton already, to the dismay of some vocal citizens.
     
  9. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

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    While I agree with Octavian that we should not grant such unilateral powers to the President, I think that this can be rectified by giving the Council emergency powers.

    For those who are vehemently against the council vote in any circumstance, I would remind them that we are now in a 25-turn election cycle. This means that they will have much more opportunity to retain or dismiss leaders based on their decisions. I think while it is important not to give our leaders too much power, I feel the same way about the general populace.

    A Council Vote for emergency circumstances only(with a tie-breaker by the President, if need be) is a reasonable compromise here. I therefore vote No and hope to see this proposal reworked.
     
  10. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Warlord Super Moderator

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    Yes, I do see that the Apolytonian treaty is illegal under the current constitution, but this could be rectified to some extent by the posting of a council vote.

    Regarding the active census, what means are we using to determine the average number of votes in the most recent election cycle? I assumed that it was done by averaging the total number of votes in each of the most recent election polls. Doing that would yield:

    President - 25 votes
    Vice President - 21
    Domestic Minister - 19
    Foreign Affairs Minister - 22
    Defense Minister - 22
    Science Minister - 22
    Justice - 18
    Average - 21 votes (rounded)

    How else can this be done?
     
  11. Octavian X

    Octavian X is not a pipe.

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    Boots:

    That would be my mistake. I'll post a new thread on treaties soon.
     
  12. Gingerbread Man

    Gingerbread Man Dark Magus

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    Look, if it is an emergency sitation, we can talk to mongoose. It has been done before, it can be done again.

    In fact, the gap before last turn was because Poly was having a tiff with GCA for crawling into a little spiderhole, for the sole purpose of creating war-weariness. (Wow, that is so similar to real life!)

    I also voted no because of the numbers deal. We aren't able to get 21 people to vote.
     
  13. Ankka

    Ankka Chieftain

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    Yeah, we'll never get so many votes on things like this or treaties...
     
  14. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I vote NO based on the quorum being too high, and lack of an emergency process.
     
  15. Ankka

    Ankka Chieftain

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    It would be ok iof the quorum was less...
     

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