Continent Flavors

[stealth_nsk]

Yes, I agree with that. But I'm not clear, are you arguing for or against having "significant parts of continent borders made of impassable terrain"?

I'm saying it will affect the balance. So it's not cosmetic change (like graphical diversity), but gameplay change which will require significant playtesting and so on. I'm not arguing for or against, but it would be nice to have feature

 

[ExpiredReign]

The problem is that continental borders in Civ 6 often appear to have no justification outside of a need for game-playing purposes. If they would at least roughly follow major mountain ranges and/or seas they'd make a lot more sense. That's what I expect to be implemented at some point in the fairly near future.

It's been said numerous times by the developers and YouTubers that the continental boundaries should be seen more like the one that exists between Asia and Europe. ie. an arbitrary boundary decided by cartographers and politics.

 

[qadams]

Well, even the division between Europe and Asia does "at least roughly follow" a mountain range (the Urals) and a sea (the Black Sea).

 

[Uberfrog]

Well, even the division between Europe and Asia does "at least roughly follow" a mountain range (the Urals) and a sea (the Black Sea).

Yeah, it's just an arbitrary choice of mountain range. Iberia is not a different continent, despite being separated from the rest of Europe by the Pyrenees. Likewise, India and southeast Asia are well separated from China by the Himalayas and Hengduan mountains.

I agree that it would be nice to have some sort of indication on the map at a continental boundary. But mountain ranges aren't sufficient because we don't necessarily want every mountain range on the map to have a different continent behind it.

 

[c4c6]

They'd probably do just fine if they added continental borders on the map. (By default, not a lens but a thicker hex line at the border)

And/or as part of the optional Hex-Grid overlay!

Aren't we all playing Civ? I mean, with just a 'little' different history, nowadays "Asia" would reach until Finisterre AND the small territory considered an EXTRA CONTINENT would be "Tchaturanga" (south of the Himalaya) with "Africa", the "America"s etc. being the same.

 

[Teproc]

The Europe/Asia border is not arbitrary... not fully at least. First of all, only a part of it is even debatable : clearly the Bosphorus and the Caucasus are pretty satisfactory frontiers. The Ural is more of an excuse, but it is a mountainous range that does act as somewhat of a divider on part of that line, and at least it's historically been a sparesly populated area... also it's the only continent border in the world that's this fuzzy. In the game as it stands, it seems like continents are all completely arbitrary, not even attempting to follow mountain ranges or isthmuses. I find it frustrating and potentially immersion-breaking, though we will see once the game comes out of course.

 

[c4c6]

The Europe/Asia border is not arbitrary

I doubt (with the major players sitting in an America and drawing colony borders over Africa, Europe & Asia in one big throw) they would have separated Europe as standalone continent. What for?

 

[Lord Shadow]

I forgot about that system in Civ 5, the differences were way too minor to pay any detail to them. Cool idea anyways.

Here are the Civ 5 continent "palettes": (I can't find how to put an image to Spoilers in the new forum..)

Spoiler :

This is the first time I notice this. If you need to be told a feature exists in order to realize it...

Resources are better spent elsewhere.

 

[jekke]

Does Europe even make sense as a separate continent, from a scientific point of view? I mean, tectonic plates, Eurasia etc...

 

[Acken]

No but regions in geography are not decided by science. Its usually tied to history.

 

[ExemplarVoss]

Does Europe even make sense as a separate continent, from a scientific point of view? I mean, tectonic plates, Eurasia etc...

Nope. 'Europe' is a separate continent because the Greeks decreed it so (and personified her), long before they even knew the Urals existed.

 

[stiiknafuulia]

In creating my world map, I used the different kinds of hills and mountains to simulate the dunes of the Sahara and higher vs. lower mountains (as well as 'icy' ones), so I'm sad to see this feature is not included at launch.

I'm still torn about the implementation of continents on my upcoming Civ VI world map: should their borders follow those of 'real' Earth continents, or should the world be divided into smaller chunks, to make it easier for certain civs to make use of their unique abilities? Whichever I end up choosing, I hope the different terrain appearances (if they''ll add them at some point) won't be directly tied to continental borders (in the map editor I mean), because that would make their use almost impossible for aesthetic purposes, leading to a million tiny 'continents' the size of single hills, mountains, etc.

 

[Wellfooled]

This is the first time I notice this. If you need to be told a feature exists in order to realize it...

Resources are better spent elsewhere.

The differences could be made more noticeable if this feature were added to Civ VI, particularly since Civ VI leans toward a more stylized look.

In Civ V I would sometimes restart my game a few times looking for a start on the European textures because of the lush forests and white capped mountains.

 

[Haggbart]

Maybe I should be shameful playing 1300 hours of CiV without noticing that

But yeah, as someone already said - spend the resources elsewhere.

 

[Atlas627]

Continent borders follow *some* geography. However, people choose which piece of geography to use from a bunch of different factors.

The entire area south of the Himalayas and within the river valleys could be its own continent, geographically. The entire area Northeast of the Himalayas could be its own continent. The entire area around the Mediterranean, enclosed by deserts in the East, the Black Sea and mountains in the northeast, the Danube and Alps in the northwest, and the Sahara in the South, could be a continent. It has been interconnected in terms of people much more than Africa ever has been.

Spoiler :

http://imgur.com/A08Py2c

Look, I can make up any number of continents I want, rather than use the Greek system for Europe/Asia/Africa. There are plenty of geographical borders to use. Asia surely shouldn't be one huge continent with the ludicrous mountain range in the middle of it.

I've divided North America up into 4 regions. Appalachia is in green, bordered by the Appalachian mountains and defined by the tributaries that lead into the Atlantic. The Great Plains are in orange, surrounded by mountains to the East and West and defined by tributaries that lead into the Gulf of Mexico. Pacifica is in pink, defined by the Rocky Mountains and everything that doesn't fall into another continent. Columbia is in grey, defined by the Panama Canal, Rio Grande, and named after Columbus who thought they were the spice islands.

South America is divided into 2 regions. The West is Andes, defined by the prominent Andes mountains. The East is Amazonia, which gets grouped together for being everything on the other side of the Andes.

Europe is divided into 3.5 regions. The Northwest is Atlantis, bordered by the Alps, the Pyrenees, the Rhine (since it empties into the Atlantic), and the mountains of Scandinavia. In blue is Baltica, named for all of the tributaries in this flat plain that empty into the Baltic and keep this region connected. In orange is Scythia, grouped together mostly for being territory that empties into the Black Sea, bordered by the Ural mountains and the rough terrain of Anatolia. The purple area, Gloria (named after the glory of the Roman Empire), is bordered by mountains and deserts on all sides, and is grouped together due to the interconnectivity the Mediterranean provided.

Africa is split into 4.5. North Africa is part of Gloria. West Africa, bordered by the Sahara and Congo jungle, is in yellow and is aptly called Sahara. The green is the area encompassed by the jungle, named Kongo. The grey covers all the savanna and area that connects to the Indian Ocean, called the Great Savanna. The pink covers all the area that isn't covered by the rest, known as Zululand.

Asia is split into 5.5. In yellow is Mesopotamia, bordered by desert on the West, mountains to the North, and river valleys to the East. The blue area is India, obviously bordered by the Himalayas. The Steppelands are the purple area. East Asia is in white, and is called the Orient. Southeast Asia, in red, is defined by its wet hot jungles, is named Polasia.

And then of course we have Australia and Polynesia.

This is more like what Civ6 is doing. From what we've seen in the most recent videos, the game has been putting continental divides at "more reasonable" locations. I personally have no issue with a continental divide in the middle of the Sahara or Siberia. I wouldn't have an issue with a divide in the middle of the Great Plains, since I could just imagine people had defined those continents due to ease of travel, before scouting out the whole landmass (just like the Greeks did with Europe, Asia, and Africa).

I do hope continental flavors come back in some form to help us notice the borders without lenses, though. That would be nice.

 

[ehecatzin]

This is the first time I notice this. If you need to be told a feature exists in order to realize it...

Resources are better spent elsewhere.

Well maybe you never noticed, doesn't mean others didn't. However I do agree with you in that for a vanilla release it's probably better to focus efforts on more critical stuff, after release tho, it's a whole diferent story. Actually the fact we have pine forest, and nothing else, makes me hopefull this feature is coming back, and it's also the kind of thing that works very well as a DLC, being purelly graphical, for those of use who like to see more variety.

It's one of the features I hope comes back with a vengeance.

 

[jekke]

No but regions in geography are not decided by science. Its usually tied to history.

Nope. 'Europe' is a separate continent because the Greeks decreed it so (and personified her), long before they even knew the Urals existed.

Right. I mean, I understand the desire to separate Europe from Asia, but the word "continent" has a specific meaning. You can't simply take a known word a say, from now on it is going to mean this because you simply said so. Even less so if you are a video game designer, not a professor. Coming back to the game, I think a continent border should be marked with a mountain range at least, or a chain of lakes, or something cartographically visible at least.

 

[Cilpot]

This is the first time I notice this. If you need to be told a feature exists in order to realize it...

Resources are better spent elsewhere.

I find it weird that people haven't noticed this. For me this was a great feature of Civ 5 and I will miss the variety in Civ 6.

 

[rreebb]

I find it weird that people haven't noticed this. For me this was a great feature of Civ 5 and I will miss the variety in Civ 6.

I noticed only the differing mountains, but I never realized it was tied to continents. (Which doesn't make too much sense anyway, how a mountain range looks depends on its age and altitude, not the continent it happens to be on.)

 

[Uberfrog]

Right. I mean, I understand the desire to separate Europe from Asia, but the word "continent" has a specific meaning. You can't simply take a known word a say, from now on it is going to mean this because you simply said so. Even less so if you are a video game designer, not a professor. Coming back to the game, I think a continent border should be marked with a mountain range at least, or a chain of lakes, or something cartographically visible at least.

I think the point some people are trying to get across is that it doesn't! The word continent as generally understood is inextricably linked to our concept of there being Europe, Asia, Africa, etc. These names originate from Ancient Greek and Roman concepts that got extrapolated later. The Urals and the Caucasus only started being considered the boundary long after the concept of Europe and Asia as separate entities were ingrained in the minds of Europeans.

Try and apply the definition of continent to a virtual planet with completely different geography, and you can draw the boundaries wherever you like. It's no great revision of the definition of continent, because there is no one definition, only a convention based on the Earth.