Contrast photo Journal tradition vs Progress

[stii]

The eternal battle of is tradition better than progress? While comparing even the same start doesn't work too well it is a good excuse to play a joint game to see how people do things differently. I'm going to take the side of progress vs CrazyG's tradition. Anyone is welcome to play along as well, you can even pick authority if you want! Just download the current patch and spoiler tag any comments you make on the game itself.

This is a deity game so it will be pretty hard in general and I'd judge the map to be slightly easier than normal but even that is very subjective.

 

[stii]

Very mild spoilers about the start position and settle/advice

I moved onto the south Tobacco. Very minimal cost as it only takes one turn and gives you 2 gold from the Tobacco and 2 gold from the oasis right away.

Slightly more spoilery about nearby civs


While the start position is great in terms of resources we are rather close to Songhai and France which is not ideal. And a bit squeezed. Blocking off city spots is pretty important here and expanding in a defensibly way.

 

[CppMaster]

While comparing even the same start doesn't work too well

Why?

 

[nekokon]

Why?

There's a huge difference between tradition and progress depends on nearby civ, thus the ability to safely expand. Progress is much weaker if they can't expand.
I think for this particular comparison traditional artistry Ethiopia would be quite a bit stronger than progress fealty based on start alone.

 

[CppMaster]

So what would be a better way to compare them?

 

[nekokon]

There's no reason to. You pick them based on the civ and start and roll with it.
Only when there's a glaring balance issue that you need to compare them, and even then you don't just do it directly in 1 game with the same start, but with data from a bunch of different AI games (and some guess works).
Also we're high jacking the thread for unrelated topic. Let's stop.

 

[stii]

So what would be a better way to compare them?

One person playing both ways and trying to mirror as closely as possible. Reloading to get the AI to act the same. Which is much less interesting.

Plus I mostly did this because of the suggestion progress was awful and I thought it can't be that bad, as opposed to thinking progress was better.

 

[CppMaster]

Progress is great for developing cities. Authority is only good when you are suceeding at war. Tradition is only good when you play tall, I think.

 

[stii]

Early game. Up to T23

Spoiler image :

Scouted in a small circle around me and found France and Songhai rather close to me. didn't even bother to scout towards Songhai that much as I really don't want to build a city near them if possible. Going to be a bit tight here Open with monument, worker settler. All the early builds seem pretty bad and while a worker isn't very exciting I will need a bunch fairly soon to try and connect up my lux monopoly as quickly as possible

 

[stii]

Up to T44

Spoiler image :

France tried to forward settle me so hard I don't even know where the settler was going but I blocked with my scout a bit and got this nice location. It blocks off lots of land which is pretty important if I want lots of cities. the one extra tobacco means once I improve everything off these two cities I will have five enough for a monopoly. This will make it very easy to get a religion and have loads of faith in general. I'm still going to power out 5-6 cities as quickly as possible but not needing a 3rd city to have tobacco is useful. Having a bunch of very close cities seems best for progress. Makes it easier to connect them to the capital and I don't want them to grow too big anyway.

 

[stii]

Up to T51

Spoiler image :

Monopoly on t51, probably about as quick as possible without really going crazy. Should be first religion anyway. Have loads of money as well so bought another works and plan to invest in all my UB monuments. Policy order is progress opener, free worker, +3food &+3 science for connection, +3 production & cheaper workers. I think you pretty much have to do it this order as you have so little culture early on you need the science to get culture. Taking +3 production before connections would slow the next policy down so much.

 

[CrazyG]

I played till turn 35. Here's my thoughts:

Spoiler Image :

Man do I wish could I pick authority on this start. Two close neighbors and a ton of barbarians spawned all around me.

Anyways with tradition this start is below average in my view. Faith monopoly is normally great but its much less important as Ethiopia.
The land is high in gold but really low on production. I settle tobacco near Oasis for a high gold and high food start.

Build order was monument-well (invested) - pyramids - settler. Plan is to put down two cities really quickly to get my monopoly, possibly
settling directly on tobacco. Stole a worker from Zurich and harrassed a lot of city states in general.

Here's the game on turn of pantheon. There's no obvious top choice on this land.
I also get my 2nd social policy this turn and have a chance to pick my research (in the image I think trade is queued but I could swap). There will also be a free tech available which I planned on using for calendar.

 

[stii]

Spoiler My patheon :

I was reasonably happy with the lake/marsh pantheon here as the cities to the south have a huge number of marshes, with a few lakes dotted around too. Not that exciting but fine as faith isn't an issue. I could certainly see a different one as tradition

Spoiler tradition vs progress :

Yeah on scouting I don't think I'd pick progress here and in general it doesn't feel very powerful. Although enough has changed since last I played this mod I have no clue. Did feel like I made lots of cities just because I was progress in the end though.

 

[besset]

Spoiler My patheon :

Maybe god of commerce would have worked here since you are focusing on connecting cities quickly, i heard it's strong as progress. Or god of all creation for the quick extra yields to snowball and since you are Ethiopia you will be able to found with it

 

[besset]

I played till turn 35. Here's my thoughts:

Maybe god of all creation to snowball quickly, will probably be able to found with it easily too. Or goddess of beauty since you built pyramids.

 

[CrazyG]

Spoiler Religion :

Connected my monopoly on turn 46, by putting both settlers directly on the tobacco. I plan to sit on 3 cities for a while. This gives really weird borders with France, but I'll have a tech lead over him and should easily be able to conquer that city at some point.

Got my religion on turn 73. Took God of All Creation as my pantheon. Currently in a golden age.

Same 3 cities as before, a small army and two city state allies. No war yet.
12 technologies, 1 turn away from Mathematics. Plan to use my free tech on Drama and Poetry.

 

[stii]

Up to T70

Spoiler images :

Progress not comparing very well to tradition here. My numbers are so much lower. A bit is the build up and bonus yields not being included but still it doesn't really seem worth it. Only I've got is better city placement without France in my face but that seems nothing to do with progress. I'm hardly struggling but progress needs to really step it up later on to be better.

 

[stii]

Up to t85

Spoiler image :

Getting religion on T86. Going orders and faith/gold/science per policy thingy. Feels a bit like I am building more cities just for the sake of it. Does get more exciting later but still feels the same thing but worse compared to tradition. Have a bunch of CS allies at least so I feel pretty safe. But again this is just having loads of money from other sources as opposed ot the +3 gold per city.

 

[CrazyG]

Up to T70

Spoiler images :

Progress not comparing very well to tradition here. My numbers are so much lower. A bit is the build up and bonus yields not being included but still it doesn't really seem worth it. Only I've got is better city placement without France in my face but that seems nothing to do with progress. I'm hardly struggling but progress needs to really step it up later on to be better.

Curious if you noticed how much settlers are costing? Currently they price up the more cities you have. I think I'm going to write a proposal to remove that, losing a pop on each settle is more than enough to deter spamming cities. I'd probably still prefer tradition but its a good start.

Also what does the culture look like? Do you already have 4 policies at turn 70?

On Science I do have a CS ally in my picture, so keep in minds that 6, and a golden age would explain the gap in gold as well as faith (+25% during golden ages from the Stele) Theoretically that's what progress should be most ahead in.

 

[stii]

Curious if you noticed how much settlers are costing? Currently they price up the more cities you have. I think I'm going to write a proposal to remove that, losing a pop on each settle is more than enough to deter spamming cities. I'd probably still prefer tradition but its a good start.

Also what does the culture look like? Do you already have 4 policies at turn 70?

On Science I do have a CS ally in my picture, so keep in minds that 6, and a golden age would explain the gap in gold as well as faith (+25% during golden ages from the Stele) Theoretically that's what progress should be most ahead in.

I didn't notice the settler cost, production at least was fine for me. I got the 4th policy on T75-80. Progress just has no culture other than teching really. But maybe having six cities later on will let me catch up.