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Contrast Photojournal, Everyone Welcome

Discussion in 'Playthroughs and Photojournals' started by CrazyG, Jul 11, 2020.

  1. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    Very interesting. You mean with authority but before war? My gut feeling is progress plus authority on five cities without wars cannot stand a chance against tradition snowballer, and Siam is a notorious tradition snowballer. It will be quite a powerspike now with metallurgy bonus to lumbermills but lategame bonuses will propel Siam beyond anything player in that situation would be able to achieve. But maybe I'm wrong, I'm conqueror at heart, game's more alive that way. Yeah, food seems to be really good here, since you ain't wide, so happiness isn't spread across more and weaker cities. Progress happiness also got online much earlier than usual because of that food.
    I don't like to conquer city-states for aesthetic reasons I just think it's more valuable here if you will go full authority and full conquest, so anti-warmonger penalty will be high nontheless. Are you planning on taking Porto and Lisbon?
     
  2. stii

    stii King

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    My own game was tradition, no aggressive war at any point. So it is the same start point but certainly not the same end point. I'll put up my save+screenshots in a bit.

    Yeah I'm going to make Porto and Lisbon then make them my vassal. That should get me any wonders they have and end the war resonably quickly. While Siam is ahead on tech it is a long time before they is anything beyond metallurgy in terms of military techs so we should be level at least. So I want to get to attacking them as soon as possible.
     
  3. stii

    stii King

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    So my own game continued to t171.

    Spoiler :
    Slightly ahead on culture so it isn't finishing the 2nd tree but same turn seemed to make more sense. Spoiler is probavbly overkill as it is a different game but there is some overlap I guess.

    Continued the peaceful plan, took fealty as I have lots of faith with no outlet and it is fine. Got Siams religion, which was perfectly fine and not like I had a choice. Did make him love me even more.

    Siam even talked me into a war with Persia which I figured was pretty safe and it was just a scuffle with no one my units ever being in danger really. Obviously Siam did nothing and peaced out before me but I guess there was a slight rep boost.

    With no war there was even more iron/horse to sell and the AIs pay so much for them. Which turns bank into a huge boost. With all of I managed to beat Siam to Porcelain Tower, although only by one turn because he entered a new age and got the stupid production boost. Siam is 4 techs ahead of me which seems fine as long as he stays friendly until the late game. My main "issue" is that my cities have too much production and have run out of things to build. I'm even trying taj mahal but that is pretty much 0% to get built.

    Spy stealing continues to baffle me as it told me Portugal was the best to steal from and you techs in 5 turns in this game and the main one. Only moving when I have everything and somehow Siam is 21 turns to steal from. I guess he has defensive building/s but it is still weird. On the plus side 21 turns for an era advancement from scientific theory is a pretty big gain.

    t171 own city.png
    t171 own tech.png t171 inside city.png

    Despite being slightly ahead here authority still feels a lot stronger as the attack hasn't paid off at all in the other game but tradition hasn't put us that far ahead. We are a bit more at the mercy of the AI not going utterly crazy.

     
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  4. DeAnno

    DeAnno Prince

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    This is pretty incidental to this game in general (especially as this tradition save is counterfactual at this point), but is this a usual strategy for those who just barely miss Religion (assuming you don't reset)? Seems counter-intuitive to focus it without a religion of your own but I guess you can spend all the faith on monasteries, it is a rather large return now that I consider it. The pressure/faith Fealty policy seems like it's a real stinker if you do this though (maybe do Burghers+2 in Artistry for culture specs instead?)
     
  5. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    Stii thanks for writings this, I was very curious how this worked out, and it doesn't look terrible, you played really well. Four techs behind snowballing AI is manageable. However I still do think that this is a little hopeless situation no matter what for the player. Only two wonders at the end of the renaissance for tradition? Looks like a failure to me. Authority got more (which also tells a lot about policies balance). Siam has buffed constabularies which he beelines I assume, so that's the spy conundrum. Why are you working merchants though? The first cheap one and city-state quest? Is Leaning Tower still available? There are three upsides I can think of:
    low wonders count will assure the main threat (Siam) and your other tradition neighbor (Portugal) won't hate you and declare, which would probably end the game, especially coupled with shared religion and maybe shared ideology,
    tradition will soon blossom with great people generation and great engineers faith-buying, which can translate to securing important wonders,
    two free tenets will add to the momentum, this will be a big one.
    What are you thoughts on third policy and ideology? I can see a real powerspike with Rationalism and Order. Order will give you great cities (which Freedom won't), comparable growth (if not more) than Freedom, and also slightly more great persons opportunities. Industry is more for Artistry cultural games when you need more development to your cities, that is definitely not the case with fealty and all those lumber mills. If I remember correctly Siam and Portugal also tend to go order?
     
  6. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    I'm impressed that @stii even managed Porcelain Tower in his tradition game.

    @Cokolwiek Your assertion that authority got more wonders than Tradition is incorrect. My save was progress, and I got 2 Stonehenge and Terracotta with Progress. The only wonder @stii added on his Progress / Authority run was Forbidden Palace, which he was guaranteed to get since no one else went Progress.
     
  7. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    Technically you are right. Considering the fact that three more powerful wonders are better than Pyramids or Porcelain, AND the fact that in Authority save he will get more from Portugal and maybe others, AND that two wonders for tradition is still suicidal run, as it got no more wonders than Progress, then yes, both Authority and Progress have managed to get the same or better amount of wonders than tradition. And it hurts tradition very much on deity.
     
  8. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    All 3 wonders in the Progress / Authority run by @stii are directly attributable to Progress, as the first 2 wonders were achieved when Progress only and the 3rd was Progress' finisher.

    I agree that 2 wonders as Tradition does not justify going Tradition.
     
  9. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    I can't see how Stonehenge is attributable to Progress. It's tier one, you don't need social policies, nor tech so Progress opener is useless for it, while Authority is getting you one production which can be crucial for getting it. I habitually get Stonehenge with Authority. Progress opener doesn't give you any production unlike Tradition or Authority and it's second policy comes online when wonder is already done. Anyway that worker couldn't do anything useful before finishing it, mines too slow, and clearing don't provide production.
     
  10. tothePAIN

    tothePAIN King

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    The wonders are from a Progress play through.

    You're wrong that authority had more wonders.

    The only wonder the Progress / Authority play through got was the Progress finisher.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
  11. stii

    stii King

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    I think you are being rather pessimistic here. I think we pretty much all agree Authority is better than peaceful play but that doesn't make it impossible to win. I think wonder are rather over rated and you don't need loads, which is lucky as you won't get many early/mid game.

    I am working merchants because they provide a pretty big buff, 700 gold and we love the king day for all cities, which provides a production boost under fealty. I don't have a use for engineers and my other cities are producing writers/artis so the overlap is a bit wasted, I am still working two writer in that city anyway. It has run out of things to build so it working a lot of specialists and has been all game.

    I'd pretty much always take Rationalism , as I think it is a lot better than the others. Order is best for space victory so I am planning on taking that.
     
  12. stii

    stii King

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    As yet another sample game to show another tradition game, not the same start/civ. Spoilered because it has a bunch of images in it.

    Spoiler images :


    t171 nether cities.png

    t171 nether tech.png t171 netherlands.png


    The position is pretty much the same. A few wonders. Slightly less tech but the Ai is slow doing worse which probably has a knock on effect. This is from a finished game that I won, and it wasn't even close by the end.The main danger is the AI attacking you but mostly they want to be your friend until it is too late.

    Netherlands is a bit more powerful but I don't think it makes that much difference.
     
  13. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    I can assume, since we don't have a report with authority first and two wonders. But I think Stonehenge and Terracotta were doable with authority, I usually get them on deity, so it leaves us with the same number of wonders tradition could do. That's pretty underwhelming for tradition and taking into account wonders are more important for tradition than authority, and authority can conquer more, it could be said authority can get more.
    If it's so good you take it nearly every time isn't it broken? And isn't it very vanilla in style? Do you take it also when wide or warmongering?

    You're definitely a better tradition player so you see things I don't see. There's however one important thing of note, you heavily depend on the broken AI when it comes to war. Five units in late renaissance? And xbows? When you border two authority civs? AI is broken that it doesn't attack you. Since Recursive divulged how to do it, I always tweak values in approach files and add 80% modifier to war to other AIs and human player along with 20% to adopt anything but neutral stance. Games are much more alive and old-VP feel this way. I think similar thing is scheduled be Recursive to be added in the next version, so this would purge this unrealistic, vanilla-like peaceful plays. When I type "peaceful tradition play should be possible" I mean not conquering half the continent, not having vassal, not being aggressive, while still having to be at military cap, up to date, take a city if forward settled, and having to conduct defensive wars which are many times harder than when attacking as wide authority.
    My opinion is, making AI more aggressive or opportunistic so it would attack you in this situation, while halving ABC bonuses from settling the capital and taking them away from shrines in every city would be preferable.

    EDIT: I will try tradition Netherlands with my AI tweaks and we will see how this goes. Maybe I'll make a photojournal out of it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
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  14. stii

    stii King

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    Yeah Rationalism is broken, at least in terms of comparison. I'd rather seem the others made stronger than it weaker I think. It is currently miles better than everything else, both the other options are very unexciting. much like I feel all of the 2nd tier options are unexciting so taking authority is fine because although it lose some value taken late fealty is meh and statecraft/artistry are even worse. Even as Venice tradition+authority I ended up taking half rationlism because a free tech is so powerful and I only wanted the puppet reduction. Puppets were still so bad maybe I should have gone full rationlism still. And then later on being able to buy GS is huge and the only thing I like about progress is the ability to buy GW.

    And yes I abuse lots of things on deity, in the same way I'm selling a million things to AI who don't need it. They pay so much for iron/horses under the current patch is rather insane. Also to be fair the AI couldn't actually win a war there with castles and the ability to rush buy/build a bunch of units. the Ai is a lot better but it still sin't good enough to beat a human in an offensive war. all it can do is waste my resources.
     
  15. Cokolwiek

    Cokolwiek Prince

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    I think this warrants another thread, I would very much like to hear what others have to say. I've always hated rationalism with passion for its absolute lack of flavor or realism compared to imperialism and industry, and its vanilla feel. Free technology is such a bad design for a policy, the same for the observatories, both thematically and mechanically. I disagree somewhat on second tier policies but I see your point so let's not discuss that.
    I didn't mean to attack you, you are playing well and are successful on deity, only using the mechanism that are available to every player. However I would like the need to do this cheesy things eradicated from gold version or any future betas like lack of aggressiveness, trade deals they never should accepted (horses are the main suspects). It reminds me of vanilla deity when cheesy worker steal was normal and needed.
     
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  16. stii

    stii King

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    Sure no worries. I understand your overall point and agree. Closing up exploits would let us tone down the AI boosts or make the game harder depending on your overall goal. There are lots of things the AI does which are exploitable so ending osme would be good.

    Obviously that is easier said than done.
     
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  17. DeAnno

    DeAnno Prince

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    If we play a new photojournal we probably should standardize some rule about selling Strategics. Ie you can sell unlimited, you can only sell in groups of 2+, you can't sell at all, etc. As is the trade AI is broken in that respect.
     
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  18. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    This makes the game a lot easier IMO. I just got offered friendship by the Inca, who (somehow) had more than 1000 gold in the bank on turn 60, when I revealed iron, discovered 6 underneath my capital city. I traded for enough gold to buy 7 workers..........
     
  19. Noob Fanboy

    Noob Fanboy Warlord

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    I like the idea, but I was late for participating in the first part and now it's confusing. Are we continuing pain save file until a certain point?
     
  20. stii

    stii King

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    Yeah the basic idea is to take the pain save file and play until you finish the second policy tree. Then you can compare what you did to others from the same starting situation.
     

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