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[Milae]

Alright My continuation:

Spoiler :

Feel like there was 2 choices here: Either go straight into Siam after taking Lisbon
or take out the rest of Portugal and wait till later to deal with Siam.

Decided to go with the latter and take all of Portuguese cities on the continent and I kinda wanted to see if I could beat Siam without warring them. Made a bit a a hash of taking Braga and Coimbra as I tried to take them both simultaneously and was a bit stingy with not upgrading to field guns while I had war weariness. Got the job done in the end though. I also wanted a wider empire so I could have more strategics and get towards reformation.
Next I decided to take out the Siamese allied city-states of Kuala Lumpur and Kabul to weaken them and so I wouldn't have to war them all simultaneously and seemed like waiting until ideology for a big war was the best idea.

Went for Industry as policy, all of the policies in industry are actually pretty useful and synergise with things we have like gold purchasing, trade routes, lumbermills and wide empire. Idea was to get massive production in cities. Obviously there was no coal even with Portugal's land which was rather triggering so that kind of destroyed that plan.

Sent out loads of missionaries towards Sukhothai to get bonus culture and this allowed me to get through the full industry tree very quickly so ended up getting to ideology on turn 224 while I was invading Kabul.

Managed to get Brandenburg Gate and building Neushwanstein now. Spies actually did pretty good work this game stealing techs. There is also a steal from India scheduled for next turn who has Scientific Theory.

Doesn't seem like trying to overtake Siam is a good idea here especially without any coal so I think war will have to happen at some point. Choice is really whether to go now or wait until combustion/balistics.

Not gonna lie this game is in my head a bit I quite want to just get on and finish it lol.

 

[tothePAIN]

Alright My continuation:

Spoiler :

Feel like there was 2 choices here: Either go straight into Siam after taking Lisbon
or take out the rest of Portugal and wait till later to deal with Siam.

Decided to go with the latter and take all of Portuguese cities on the continent and I kinda wanted to see if I could beat Siam without warring them. Made a bit a a hash of taking Braga and Coimbra as I tried to take them both simultaneously and was a bit stingy with not upgrading to field guns while I had war weariness. Got the job done in the end though. I also wanted a wider empire so I could have more strategics and get towards reformation.
Next I decided to take out the Siamese allied city-states of Kuala Lumpur and Kabul to weaken them and so I wouldn't have to war them all simultaneously and seemed like waiting until ideology for a big war was the best idea.

Went for Industry as policy, all of the policies in industry are actually pretty useful and synergise with things we have like gold purchasing, trade routes, lumbermills and wide empire. Idea was to get massive production in cities. Obviously there was no coal even with Portugal's land which was rather triggering so that kind of destroyed that plan.

Sent out loads of missionaries towards Sukhothai to get bonus culture and this allowed me to get through the full industry tree very quickly so ended up getting to ideology on turn 224 while I was invading Kabul.

View attachment 564788

Managed to get Brandenburg Gate and building Neushwanstein now. Spies actually did pretty good work this game stealing techs. There is also a steal from India scheduled for next turn who has Scientific Theory.

View attachment 564789

Doesn't seem like trying to overtake Siam is a good idea here especially without any coal so I think war will have to happen at some point. Choice is really whether to go now or wait until combustion/balistics.

Not gonna lie this game is in my head a bit I quite want to just get on and finish it lol.

I'll post my game later today. (I just kept playing my save.) It seems like interest in the later game has trickled out a little bit.

 

[Milae]

I'll post my game later today. (I just kept playing my save.) It seems like interest in the later game has trickled out a little bit.

Spoiler :

Well I'm assuming everyone is planning to take down Siam and I'm definitely interested to see if people attack at different timings and what difference that makes. I was second guessing myself a lot trying to make that decision lol.

 

[tothePAIN]

Spoiler :

Well I'm assuming everyone is planning to take down Siam and I'm definitely interested to see if people attack at different timings and what difference that makes. I was second guessing myself a lot trying to make that decision lol.

Spoiler My game :

So this is not @Milae's save at the 3rd policy tree, but my own game. I had a specific strategy that I wanted to execute and planned for. On turn 191, I was still in the process of sieging Lisbon. It took me a while. I'm a methodical warmonger and hate losing units. I think I ended up needing field guns to take Lisbon, due to the rough terrain making it challenging. It took me until turn 213 (I took Braga first before focusing Lisbon.) I considered considering to conquer Portugal but decided that prioritizing Siam was more important, particularly since I figured I would want to take the city states between us before declaring war, so that I would have friendly terrain and not have to fight them while fighting Siam as well. So I vassalized Portugal on turn 215. @stii did it much faster. After that, I (probably foolishly for my culture) founded a city near Persia that I couldn't found before, due to Lisbon's borders.

I then took Sophia and Kabul. My army overall was only about 35 units, with 3 ships that never ended up seeing much combat. It looks like @stii, @Milae and I all diverged in terms of our conquering choices, even as we all prepare to attack Siam. The question is really, when. For that, I do have a specific plan.

I reached ideologies on turn 242, which is quite behind both @Milae and @stii. I'm quite impressed at how the policy and religion choices that Milae made in his game led to such a strong culture game, particularly since I just got a free policy from proposing and passing World Fair (2nd prize only). I think, even though I'm 18 turns ahead of him at this point, that my science is stronger, because of my religion choices (Science / Gold / Faith from policies, synagogues, and creativity) but Milae could obviously change that with the Imperium Policy. One of the advantages of the imperium policy on deity is that it has a low floor but also the highest ceiling possible in terms of culture, science, etc.

My policy choices were different from both of them. I strongly considered going Industry, due to Forbidden palace and lumbermills on turn 191 but this game seemed like a game that would turn on whether we could beat Siam, so I went Imperialism instead. Yep, for this game, we all went a different 3rd tier policy tree. I was afraid of going Industry and ending up with little coal. More important though, was beating Siam. My plan to beat Siam was to take advantage of Poland's late UU and upgrade them into Landships and hopefully tanks. My plan, since the first save, was vassalize Portugal, go fealty for the food, chance to reform, chance at a wonder, and Imperialism / Industry into Order, with a plan to race for Great Leap Forward (which I normally don't get) to rush to tanks and then attack Siam.

Here's the image of my save at turn 244, along with tech policy.

Spoiler Other images :

These are just the images from the playthrough. I was lucky to be chosen as the world congress leader, but I think it also helped that I only declared war twice on Portugal at that point and had fought a slow war.

View attachment 565081
I became Host of the World Congress on Turn 202. I proposed World Fair, which passed on turn 238. I also just proposed Wargames, and will use the attack bonus to attack Siam.

Interestingly, Siam offered me a Defensive Pact. The AI sometimes does this because the theory is that you won't betray a friendship or defensive pact. I accepted, because Siam also had a defensive pact with Greece, which would let me declare war on Greece and thus attack Siam without being a backstabber.

I was slower in vassalizing Lisbon, as I said. It took until turn 215.

I've played ahead, and my response to @Milae on when I am planning to / chose to attack in this game is upon using Great Leap Forward to get tanks, which happens amazingly fast with Poland. I can also build and save up 75 XP Hussars to upgrade into Landships and Tanks right up until I actually get the policy for tanks.

Spoiler SPOILER - GREAT LEAP FORWARD :

 

[stii]

Spoiler :

Well I'm assuming everyone is planning to take down Siam and I'm definitely interested to see if people attack at different timings and what difference that makes. I was second guessing myself a lot trying to make that decision lol.

Spoiler :

I think you want to attack at a new military tech because Siam will be ahead on tech so that minimizes the chance they have higher tier units, or at least lots of them. It does depends how well everything lines up too, you need a huge amount of money to upgrade everything as at this point upgrades are really expensive.

 

[stii]

Spoiler My game :

So this is not @Milae's save at the 3rd policy tree, but my own game. I had a specific strategy that I wanted to execute and planned for. On turn 191, I was still in the process of sieging Lisbon. It took me a while. I'm a methodical warmonger and hate losing units. I think I ended up needing field guns to take Lisbon, due to the rough terrain making it challenging. It took me until turn 213 (I took Braga first before focusing Lisbon.) I considered considering to conquer Portugal but decided that prioritizing Siam was more important, particularly since I figured I would want to take the city states between us before declaring war, so that I would have friendly terrain and not have to fight them while fighting Siam as well. So I vassalized Portugal on turn 215. @stii did it much faster. After that, I (probably foolishly for my culture) founded a city near Persia that I couldn't found before, due to Lisbon's borders.

I then took Sophia and Kabul. My army overall was only about 35 units, with 3 ships that never ended up seeing much combat. It looks like @stii, @Milae and I all diverged in terms of our conquering choices, even as we all prepare to attack Siam. The question is really, when. For that, I do have a specific plan.

I reached ideologies on turn 242, which is quite behind both @Milae and @stii. I'm quite impressed at how the policy and religion choices that Milae made in his game led to such a strong culture game, particularly since I just got a free policy from proposing and passing World Fair (2nd prize only). I think, even though I'm 18 turns ahead of him at this point, that my science is stronger, because of my religion choices (Science / Gold / Faith from policies, synagogues, and creativity) but Milae could obviously change that with the Imperium Policy. One of the advantages of the imperium policy on deity is that it has a low floor but also the highest ceiling possible in terms of culture, science, etc.

My policy choices were different from both of them. I strongly considered going Industry, due to Forbidden palace and lumbermills on turn 191 but this game seemed like a game that would turn on whether we could beat Siam, so I went Imperialism instead. Yep, for this game, we all went a different 3rd tier policy tree. I was afraid of going Industry and ending up with little coal. More important though, was beating Siam. My plan to beat Siam was to take advantage of Poland's late UU and upgrade them into Landships and hopefully tanks. My plan, since the first save, was vassalize Portugal, go fealty for the food, chance to reform, chance at a wonder, and Imperialism / Industry into Order, with a plan to race for Great Leap Forward (which I normally don't get) to rush to tanks and then attack Siam.

Here's the image of my save at turn 244, along with tech policy. Edit: I forgot to mention, but the wonders I built in the game in order are:

1. Stonehenge.
2. Terracotta
3. Leaning Tower
4. Red Fort (may be next)
5. Forbidden Palace
6. Eiffel Tower (was surprised to snag this one.)

View attachment 565086 View attachment 565087

Spoiler Other images :

These are just the images from the playthrough. I was lucky to be chosen as the world congress leader, but I think it also helped that I only declared war twice on Portugal at that point and had fought a slow war.

View attachment 565081
I became Host of the World Congress on Turn 202. I proposed World Fair, which passed on turn 238. I also just proposed Wargames, and will use the attack bonus to attack Siam.

View attachment 565083
Interestingly, Siam offered me a Defensive Pact. The AI sometimes does this because the theory is that you won't betray a friendship or defensive pact. I accepted, because Siam also had a defensive pact with Greece, which would let me declare war on Greece and thus attack Siam without being a backstabber.


View attachment 565084
I was slower in vassalizing Lisbon, as I said. It took until turn 215.

View attachment 565085

I've played ahead, and my response to @Milae on when I am planning to / chose to attack in this game is upon using Great Leap Forward to get tanks, which happens amazingly fast with Poland. I can also build and save up 75 XP Hussars to upgrade into Landships and Tanks right up until I actually get the policy for tanks.

Spoiler SPOILER - GREAT LEAP FORWARD :

View attachment 565088

Spoiler :

I do find it pretty funny you and Milae had this issues or at least potential issue with lack of coal and I've got it but sold it for money to upgrade. It is hard to know when to stop making buildings and start making units and I drew the line at building mil acad and not building factories. My mil cap is pretty high and I have to build units at some point.

Using order for two techs is interesting but autocracy has so many great buffs for conquest. The vassals policy provides a huge bonus and you get +25% and +15% attack which is pretty huge too.

 

[Milae]

Spoiler :

I think you want to attack at a new military tech because Siam will be ahead on tech so that minimizes the chance they have higher tier units, or at least lots of them. It does depends how well everything lines up too, you need a huge amount of money to upgrade everything as at this point upgrades are really expensive.

Yea, I was actually just having huge issues trying to get my units upgraded in another game where I went Rationalism, it's definitely an issue with that tree I hadn't experienced before.

 

[tothePAIN]

Spoiler Response :

Industry without coal is meh, so its tough to consider Industry without knowing about coal.

Generally these days, on the current patches, if I go Imperialism, I tend to prefer Order as I find the science really important to keeping parity in military tech with a runaway. I've also tried the rationalism / autocracy combo, as that also gives access to discounts for unit upgrades, and hopefully science too, but gold still feels like a struggle. Autocracy is very committed to winning via war but can fall off if it doesn't. For fighting an enemy runaway AI that is ahead in techs, I keeping up in military techs is worth the 25% bonus for attacking because the difference between next level military tech units is 25% or more. The difference between Riflemen (55) and Fusiliers (38) is 45%. The extra strength also works on defense, which matters when trying to invade the enemy territory where they get the +75% antiwarmonger bonus that is difficult to grind against.

Most civs can't use Order for two techs with the right timing. Poland, because of the free policies (and in my game, I can get great artists from fealty for golden ages), can get to the 6th ideology policy in time to get 2 free military techs up to tanks (and also the Imperialism wonder finisher). I've also got enough gold because of my religion choice. By going Order and the tech policies, I'm also likely to get the free policy from the Ideology wonder and have control over when I get the Great Leap Forward. Hussars that are upgraded into tanks can smash Siam.

 

[stii]

And now onto my peace game, spoilered because of the images as this has obviously diverged a long way.

Spoiler :

Got my ideology on exactly the same turn as the main game which is pretty funny. Slightly ahead on tech but it is starting have issues with only having four cities. Siam is only 3 techs ahead and I could probably close most of that by just buying two GS with faith. This game is certainly weaker than aggression, but I think we all knew it would be but it seems perfectly winnable from here.

Everyone is still friends and I'm pretty sure Siam isn't snowballing hard enough to stop me winning a science victory. I probably should have just not built any factories and took the free ones off the policy but the other options are fine too. Getting two free with Poland is very nice, so I can take free research labs before I can even build them.

 

[tothePAIN]

And now onto my peace game, spoilered because of the images as this has obviously diverged a long way.

Spoiler :

Got my ideology on exactly the same turn as the main game which is pretty funny. Slightly ahead on tech but it is starting have issues with only having four cities. Siam is only 3 techs ahead and I could probably close most of that by just buying two GS with faith. This game is certainly weaker than aggression, but I think we all knew it would be but it seems perfectly winnable from here.

Everyone is still friends and I'm pretty sure Siam isn't snowballing hard enough to stop me winning a science victory. I probably should have just not built any factories and took the free ones off the policy but the other options are fine too. Getting two free with Poland is very nice, so I can take free research labs before I can even build them.

View attachment 565094

View attachment 565095

What's the policy / wonder situation? Trad / Art / Rat?

 

[stii]

What's the policy / wonder situation? Trad / Art / Rat?

Trad/fealty/rat

Pyramids/porc tower/Slater Mill.

Probably getting empire state building and almost certainly getting order wonder. I'm at the point if I beeline for techs I get them before Siam letting me get a few wonders if I want them.

 

[stii]

Spoiler Response :

Industry without coal is meh, so its tough to consider Industry without knowing about coal.

Generally these days, on the current patches, if I go Imperialism, I tend to prefer Order as I find the science really important to keeping parity in military tech with a runaway. I've also tried the rationalism / autocracy combo, as that also gives access to discounts for unit upgrades, and hopefully science too, but gold still feels like a struggle. Autocracy is very committed to winning via war but can fall off if it doesn't. For fighting an enemy runaway AI that is ahead in techs, I keeping up in military techs is worth the 25% bonus for attacking because the difference between next level military tech units is 25% or more. The difference between Riflemen (55) and Fusiliers (38) is 45%. The extra strength also works on defense, which matters when trying to invade the enemy territory where they get the +75% antiwarmonger bonus that is difficult to grind against.

Most civs can't use Order for two techs with the right timing. Poland, because of the free policies (and in my game, I can get great artists from fealty for golden ages), can get to the 6th ideology policy in time to get 2 free military techs up to tanks (and also the Imperialism wonder finisher). I've also got enough gold because of my religion choice. By going Order and the tech policies, I'm also likely to get the free policy from the Ideology wonder and have control over when I get the Great Leap Forward. Hussars that are upgraded into tanks can smash Siam.

Spoiler :

My issues is that often autocracy will get more science than order. If I take order and factory/labs polices I get +90 sci compared to +220 from autocracy. I do have an extra vassals which complicates things as we aren't comparing like to like anymore. now obviously two free techs will give more but he 3rd tier autocracy policy is pretty great too, free airports lets you murder everything with bombers and I much prefer bombers to tank in general. I think if I was going to wait longer for techs I'd want bombers rather than tanks.

Although it does occur to me all this doesn't matter much as much like coal we won't always have oil to build lots of tanks/bombers anyway.

 

[Milae]

Spoiler :

My issues is that often autocracy will get more science than order. If I take order and factory/labs polices I get +90 sci compared to +220 from autocracy. I do have an extra vassals which complicates things as we aren't comparing like to like anymore. now obviously two free techs will give more but he 3rd tier autocracy policy is pretty great too, free airports lets you murder everything with bombers and I much prefer bombers to tank in general. I think if I was going to wait longer for techs I'd want bombers rather than tanks.

Although it does occur to me all this doesn't matter much as much like coal we won't always have oil to build lots of tanks/bombers anyway.

How does Autocracy give that much Science? If You went order you could actually get factories which you wouldn't be able to get otherwise. Build refineries -> Build Train Stations -> Policy for free factories.

If there is a good corporation you could get you could consider getting Freedom so you can get loads of franchises up quickly as well.

Also those pops are quite crazy, was that just from Buddhism or you did some internals as well?

 

[tothePAIN]

My issues is that often autocracy will get more science than order. If I take order and factory/labs polices I get +90 sci compared to +220 from autocracy. I do have an extra vassals which complicates things as we aren't comparing like to like anymore. now obviously two free techs will give more but he 3rd tier autocracy policy is pretty great too, free airports lets you murder everything with bombers and I much prefer bombers to tank in general. I think if I was going to wait longer for techs I'd want bombers rather than tanks.

Although it does occur to me all this doesn't matter much as much like coal we won't always have oil to build lots of tanks/bombers anyway.

Interesting. I find Autocracy's science to usually be behind Order, with the only exception being a case where you have multiple vassals and Iron Fist carries the day. But vassals tend to fall off a bit over times, since they're vassals usually.

Overall, I prefer tanks to bombers. I find air in the game recently to be pretty weak - I'd much rather have a tank rush, since i can make offensive progress with tanks while a few planes aren't going to do that much. I enjoy the Autocracy 3rd tier policy, but mostly for movement between cities with airports. On this patch, I'm also wary of trying to use air, given the bug. Upgraded hussars as tanks are a priority for me too. Do airports solve the disappearing plane bug? '

I've unspoilered the discussion because it seems like a more general discussion. I do find our policy choices very interesting. I watched a bit of @Milae 's playthrough - his thoughts on Industry into the Freedom unit purchasing policy were similar to why I had considered the policy. It speaks well to the balance of the game that we have these disparate opinions on the policy choices.

 

[Milae]

Interesting. I find Autocracy's science to usually be behind Order, with the only exception being a case where you have multiple vassals and Iron Fist carries the day. But vassals tend to fall off a bit over times, since they're vassals usually.

Overall, I prefer tanks to bombers. I find air in the game recently to be pretty weak - I'd much rather have a tank rush, since i can make offensive progress with tanks while a few planes aren't going to do that much. I enjoy the Autocracy 3rd tier policy, but mostly for movement between cities with airports. On this patch, I'm also wary of trying to use air, given the bug. Upgraded hussars as tanks are a priority for me too. Do airports solve the disappearing plane bug? '

I've unspoilered the discussion because it seems like a more general discussion. I do find our policy choices very interesting. I watched a bit of @Milae 's playthrough - his thoughts on Industry into the Freedom unit purchasing policy were similar to why I had considered the policy. It speaks well to the balance of the game that we have these disparate opinions on the policy choices.

I think it depends what your goals are with units. Bombers can be pretty useful for defence as they are quite versatile. But yea I'd rather have the tanks with hussar bonus and especially with the bugs to air units - I think it might've been to do with air unit cap so airports could help.

I Feel like late game doesn't get a lot of love because people obviously play early game more often so there can be quite a few bugs/inconsistencies which don't get found but generally it's in a pretty good place. All 3 Ideologies have their place and enough good policies within them to make choosing which policy to get each time an actual decision, corporations come at a similar time too and also World Congress proposals get more meaningful.

Btw how did you get to propose a resolution in your game? I actually made 2 great diplomats for embassies and I still don't have enough delegates.

 

[tothePAIN]

I think it depends what your goals are with units. Bombers can be pretty useful for defence as they are quite versatile. But yea I'd rather have the tanks with hussar bonus and especially with the bugs to air units - I think it might've been to do with air unit cap so airports could help.

I Feel like late game doesn't get a lot of love because people obviously play early game more often so there can be quite a few bugs/inconsistencies which don't get found but generally it's in a pretty good place. All 3 Ideologies have their place and enough good policies within them to make choosing which policy to get each time an actual decision, corporations come at a similar time too and also World Congress proposals get more meaningful.

Btw how did you get to propose a resolution in your game? I actually made 2 great diplomats for embassies and I still don't have enough delegates.

I got voted host of the World Congress. Siam and Austria voted for me. I forget what I did to make them friendly. It was a bit of a fluke, honestly - it wouldn't have happened if my war had been successful earlier, but I think the AI is sometimes forgiving of early wars if you denounce your target and war progress is slow. When I was voted the host, I had only taken 2 cities from Portugal. I cast my votes for Siam, who I expected to be the host.

Agreed that bombers are solid for defense - making progress against enemy units in their territory is the real challenge.

I did briefly consider going autocracy for the Great General double tile expansion policy. It's very strong, since fighting in your territory vs enemy territory is a +75% difference.

 

[stii]

I got voted host of the World Congress. Siam and Austria voted for me. I forget what I did to make them friendly. It was a bit of a fluke, honestly - it wouldn't have happened if my war had been successful earlier, but I think the AI is sometimes forgiving of early wars if you denounce your target and war progress is slow. When I was voted the host, I had only taken 2 cities from Portugal. I cast my votes for Siam, who I expected to be the host.

Agreed that bombers are solid for defense - making progress against enemy units in their territory is the real challenge.

I did briefly consider going autocracy for the Great General double tile expansion policy. It's very strong, since fighting in your territory vs enemy territory is a +75% difference.

I like the sound of using GG to steal enough lands to reduce the penalty, I even have the +20% in your own lands religion! Does make me wish we had full authority so I could buy 1-2 more.

 

[stii]

I think it depends what your goals are with units. Bombers can be pretty useful for defence as they are quite versatile. But yea I'd rather have the tanks with hussar bonus and especially with the bugs to air units - I think it might've been to do with air unit cap so airports could help.

I Feel like late game doesn't get a lot of love because people obviously play early game more often so there can be quite a few bugs/inconsistencies which don't get found but generally it's in a pretty good place. All 3 Ideologies have their place and enough good policies within them to make choosing which policy to get each time an actual decision, corporations come at a similar time too and also World Congress proposals get more meaningful.

Btw how did you get to propose a resolution in your game? I actually made 2 great diplomats for embassies and I still don't have enough delegates.

I got to propose after I made Persia my vassal, I guess it adds up your vassals votes? It is to be fair repeal sanctions on me

Late game is certainly a bit wonky. Playing peacefully is even worse I am switching over to research in every city sooner and sooner, there is just nothing to do.

 

[stii]

So probably worth finishing this off? From my save it was pretty easy to win so if people want to try late game war this is a good chance to do so

 

[Milae]

Yea I continued mine too and am interested to see how you guys' with the different policy choices went.

Will post in a day or two.