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Convince Me Kongo Isn't Top Tier

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by kamex, Jun 22, 2017.

  1. kamex

    kamex Emperor

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    I agree. I often find religion is not worth the required early investment, therefore as Kongo I don't miss it at all.

    Its true. I probably should have been more specific in the OP. Some games I want a majority peaceful building game and Kongo are my first choice for this. Yes they will get wiped out by an early human Scythia. I mean you could argue for the best strategy for any condition is to play Scythia, 'cleanse' your continent then turtle to whatever condition you wish. There's not much that can compete with that because Scythia is so broken, but that's going off topic.

    Also, you're right about trading peanuts for early Relics. The rewards are good for any civ but Kongo takes the cake. Also, depending on the random order of the first Great Artists, you can usually get at least some Sculptures by around turn 90 or so on standard.
     
  2. MIS

    MIS Prince

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    I only play SP Deity. The easiest way to win is to take lots of AI cities whichever victory you intend. The top tier therefore have bonuses to early war, either through UI or UA, or both. BTW, I rarely get a religion, unless I'm Arabia or Russia and going for that victory, so that's not a factor for me.
     
    Shorlin likes this.
  3. DeutschDachs

    DeutschDachs King

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    It's not a DLC Civ so nope :p
     
  4. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Can you make a comment relevant to the post?
     
  5. MIS

    MIS Prince

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    How is this not relevant? OP Q: Why isn't Kongo top tier? A: Because top tier requires good help with early war.
     
  6. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    You do have guaranteed access to sword rush w/o resource requirement, and that can work on deity, but it's not enough to be "top tier". Keeps them out of bottom tier stuff though IMO, along with the ability to ignore attempting early religion (which can be annoying on deity to say the least) and still get some kind of benefit.
     
    Jewelrunna likes this.
  7. Jewelrunna

    Jewelrunna Warlord

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    Kongo are a really good Civ imo, Nkisi is crazy good and the Mbanza lets Kongo cities get really big way earlier than everyone else. The Ngao Mbeba rush is less potent than other civs in the classical era though, and a civ like Germany can simply work around that housing limit rather than have a way to play within it. Still really good, I just don't think I can see them in the very top tier.
     
    Tiger Genocide likes this.
  8. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    except aside from earlier access to more housing and extra food that other civs never get from that district, the other thing that you get from the mbanza is gold. and a substantial amount of if. In a district that you can build multiple of per city at half priced. Extra gold equals the ability to purchase more units which equals earlier finishing of wars which equals less war weariness.

    Plus the Kongo's natural tendency to progress well with culture and, by extension, civics means that you'll have earlier access to the war weariness reducing cards.
     
    Victoria likes this.
  9. stealth_nsk

    stealth_nsk Deity

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    One of thing which I believe wasn't mentioned. Without Holy Sites, it's nearly impossible for Kongo to get naturalists. So, if you're targeting cultural victory (the most logical one for Kongo), that's a restraint.
     
  10. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    A tiny one really. You need a lot of faith for a lot of resorts. I just never bother and do just fine
     
  11. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    It seems that no one figured out the real disadvantage for Mbanza. Although it costs half the price, it actually does not cost anything less since it must be located on a forest or jungle which can provide a lot of production.

    Under such circumstances both neighborhoods and Mbanzas are not worth building despite Mbanzas give good bonuses. They simply cost too much.

    They only difference to make sense is that a neighborhood can provide about 200 or even more instant gold upon placement, while Mbanza cannot. That means the replacement of Mbanzas to Neighborhoods actually subtracts 200 gold from every city you have.

    Considering you'll be having more than 50 cities, the effect of Mbanza is -10,000 Gold, and, -20,000 considering you may be building a Big Ben. Since a Big Ben doubles your cash for about 20,000 if you aim for a space VC, the replacement of Mbanza actually acts as an anti-Big Ben for your civ.
     
  12. Siptah

    Siptah Eternal Chieftain

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    You've said this before and I still disagree with that.
    a) I don't exploit that card (and I think it should be changed to completed Neighborhoods and not placed ones)
    b) I build Commercial Hubs and thus money is never a problem
    c) each Mbanza gives +4 gold. Let's assume your 50 cities and one Mbanza in each, that's 200 gold per turn. They are unlocked at guilds, several turns before you'll get the ability to build Neighborhoods. So you've earned some thousand gold with Mbanzas before you do your little card trick. I know you like to finish your games in the mid game, but if you just think for a moment you play until something like turn 400...
    d) leaving one forest or jungle tile in each city unchopped isn't that big a deal - and in the later stages and cities, you can of course chop everything and plant a new forest for a Mbanza.
     
  13. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    You have researched everything and conquered everything with the highest strength army and 20+ pop cities, filed your spaceship into the space while influencing everyone else with tremendous travel output, and you call that a mid-game? Just because such event happen at T150~180 instead of T400?
     
  14. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    I don't really care about all the fine theorycrafting in this thread. The performance of AI congo says all there needs to be said. AI Kongo is consistently run-away in both science and culture unless they are killed before renaissance era. It may not be the best civ for human player, but it's bonuses are completely imbalanced none-the-less.
     
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  15. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    Kongo is a top Ai Civ since other Ai Civs may waste their hammers on useless Holy Sites while Kongo do not have this chance to wipe out himself. Therefore he seems to be more advanced than most other Ai Civs.
     
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  16. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Not everyone wants to play steamroller Dom or do what they consider exploiting the game.
    It's a game for enjoyment and people enjoy it in different ways.
    It is true that the AI rushing religion is just stupid and makes winning easier. Especially as a religious victory for the AI is a fail.
     
  17. Photi

    Photi Governor

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    i don't think the developers are doing themselves any favors when so much of the game can be tossed aside in order to reach these super fast victories. forum-goer whacker is about the fastest i've seen as far as space victories go, and as far as i've read he was the first one using (to good effect anyway) the great zimbabwe/big ben gold strat for purchasing great people. he's pretty humble about it and his and others detailed descriptions are good reads over in i think the beta gauntlet ii thread in the hof subforum.

    back to the devs though, they have this amazingly complex game, and yet so much of the game can be ignored in the name of efficiency and victory. maybe that's intended, but it seems like such a waste. personally i would like to see civics and techs become much more expensive, adding in diplomacy as a must have factor for later era techs (to signify how much research these days is an internationally collaborative effort), i'd like to see culture be more a part of hard science research, where the stronger your culture the more brain-drain type effect you can have on other civs and additionally add the ability for spies to not just steal techs or eurekas, but actually recruit scientists from other civs to aid in researching the more top-secret type science. i would also like to see warmongering penalties doubled if not tripled to make conquering the globe much less viable and have the domination victory become more multi-faceted, where "domination" means dominating in all of the current victory conditions combined.

    there's so much they could do to add challenge and fill out the end-game. they'd just have to be willing maybe to alter the requirements of victory based on difficulty level, so as not to turn away those new to the game but to also entice them into the more challenging higher levels.
     
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  18. Locke_Daemonfire

    Locke_Daemonfire Chieftain

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    Or maybe no one wants to play your game because of all the smug. Seriously, if you want to make an argument, just do it. No need to go all over-confident anime character on us.

    Yes, Mbanza has one obvious drawback. But it is nowhere near as bad as you're claiming. They are generally built on flat jungles, which are low yield tiles anyway. Converting 2f1p to 4f2g is already an improvement, without considering the extra yields from population benefits. Contrast this with the acropolis restriction, which is much more detrimental to production, as all hills can have good yields.

    I do understand that it's a big drawback if you never complete a neighborhood and only use them with the policy card to fund your war efforts. But not everyone plays to get the fastest win times.
     
  19. Lily_Lancer

    Lily_Lancer Emperor

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    Completing Neighborhoods has its value. It allows you to place another Neighborhood Base and get more money. In cities with many high appeal tiles and a high production to finish the neighborhood in time, the placement of a second Neighborhood may be worthwhile.

    Both Forests and Jungles provide their bonus by being chopped instead of being worked on, I think. Chop off the Jungle and you got ~100F and ~100H if you have enough tech, that's quite a lot. Despite Mbanza have good bonuses, it actually do not worth 250~300H Cost, unless for the case that you can choose your apostle's upgrade.
     
  20. Locke_Daemonfire

    Locke_Daemonfire Chieftain

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    The chop production is small (I think 15% of a district for jungle) compared to the discount (50%). The food is nice for an early city, but doesn't do as much when you want to be building the neighborhood (housing capped).

    Haha, you got me there~
     

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