Convince Me to Train Scouts

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by TW_Honorius, Jul 26, 2011.

  1. TW_Honorius

    TW_Honorius Warlord

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    I never train scouts, no matter the map type, I do not build scouts. I dont see the point. I do scout with my early warrior, but I just mow people down and usually the AI finds me. I dont have to worry about barbs, dont really care about anicent ruins. Is there a game changing reason to train scouts?
     
  2. Callonia

    Callonia Deity

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    Scouting archers.

    They alone is reason enough to build minimum of one scout :)
     
  3. FornaxTorak

    FornaxTorak Chieftain

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    Check out wainys vids on his warmongering deity game. He uses them as a cheap unit to garrison in puppeted cities to get the +1 :c5happy: and culture. Lots of bang for your buck.
     
  4. Poomermon

    Poomermon Warlord

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    I usually go scout first. Reasons:

    - They are cheaper than warriors

    - They explore much faster in rough terrain

    - Get more ancient ruins. For example a single culture ruin can speed up your game considerably.

    - Scout archers from ruins are awesome.

    - Scout your surroundings near you capital to plan your future cities and possibly overall strategy.

    - Get contact with other civs asap for trade partners (luxuries and open borders).

    - Get contact with city states for gold rewards and possible future allies.

    - Find natural wonders for happiness bonus. Maybe even win a jackpot and discover Eldorado early for a nearly instant win.

    You scout will probably die early but usually mine will pay for itself. I may build another scout early game if there are a lot of unexplored areas near me. It may be useful to build several scouts in midgame and sign open borders with everyone. Then just automate them and see what the world looks like and maybe meet the rest of the unmet civs too.
     
  5. FlowKey

    FlowKey Dark Lord

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    I agree with Poomermon on every point. But I'm even more puzzled by how you apparently play this game ...
    uhm ...? could you be a little more specific?

    Yea, and when they do, they know where you are but you not where they are ...

    Barbs are not a threat but an opportunity! Farm them for XP, gold, CS-influence and culture!

    What DO you care about TW_Honorius?
     
  6. TW_Honorius

    TW_Honorius Warlord

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    @flowkey, I am a warmongering, i rushed 5 warriors and lizzy went afraid on me and praised me and by turn 45, she was dead. then i move to the next civ near me and kill them. rinse and repeat until game over. now i will admit, i am going to do my next game 3 from the top, 1 higher than king, so maybe that is my problem.

    What i do care about. HG, SH, and ND.
     
  7. Sneaks

    Sneaks Brooklyn Bum

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    Scouts are pure gold early.

    I cannot understate how powerful early ruin pops are. 20 culture puts me several turns faster towards a free worker, getting a tech is lottery gold (considering most of the time it is Mining, Pottery, or Animal Husbandry, all high value, or Archery as Babylon), Gold ruins mean faster rushbuys, and map explorations usually lead to an extra 30 gold from first contacts with CS.

    The only time ruins are a bust are barb camp locations, but even that can be awesome as Bismark, Askia, or Monty.
     
  8. Sonereal

    Sonereal ♫We got the guillotine♫ Supporter

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    Scouts are better than warriors for their namesake, Scouting. They ignore terrain costs and are excellent cheap garrison units. Using your warrior to scout early is ok but a foolish waste of time later.
     
  9. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    Unless you have the ruins turned off, 1 scout almost always pays off, and even 2 scouts is pretty popular on larger/pangea maps. Poomermom pretty much listed all of the benefits above. I'd add a general point that better scouting enables you to figure out the geopolitical situation easier, which if you're playing warmonger, will dictate who your next target should be. How are you supposed to know that a player on the other side of the landmass is becoming a runaway, if you haven't met them yet?
     
  10. manu-fan

    manu-fan Emperor

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    My starting build was always a monument. That is, until I read these forums and saw some of the reasons to get a Scout first. Now I go Scout first and never regret it.

    Cheers.
     
  11. Pazyryk

    Pazyryk Deity

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    If you are on a big continent, 2 or even 3 scouts as initial build can give you a huge boost. Not always...but often. The first 3 policies before turn 20, 100s in gold (from gold prizes but also from finding many city states first), quick contact to initiate open borders and resource selling (also, relations are much easier to manage after contact with >3 civs), a fully mapped continent, and probably 1 and possibly 2 terrain-ignoring archers. Even a small fraction of this list is more powerful than getting monument or worker out 6 or 12 turns earlier. (This approach is very map-dependent, but initial warrior scouting can tell you whether this approach is likely to pay by turn 6.)
     
  12. Martin Alvito

    Martin Alvito Real men play SMAC

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    Scouts deploy faster and see more tiles. If the ruins are on, you want to get as many of them as possible before the AIs do. If they aren't, exploration is a lower priority.

    If you're playing Monty, it's reasonable to go Jaguar first instead. As long as your first move is into a Forest/Jungle tile (and doesn't cross a river), you can cover ground as efficiently as a Scout.
     
  13. vexing

    vexing knows

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    pachacuti has the same deal except with hills and any unit. i'd still probably build a scout first though.

    if ruins are on and you're not playing funky settings like islands or marathon, you should pretty much always start with at least one scout.

    if you're on marathon and difficulty is emperor? or up, the AI is going to start with a scout and warriors and has at least 15 turns to explore before you can even pop a scout, so if you want to tip odds in your favor just turn ruins off.
     
  14. AznWarlord

    AznWarlord Monarch

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    Help my warriors crush Barbs with a flanking bonus.
     
  15. trueblue

    trueblue Prince

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    convince you? if you are playing the game youll know the benifits, they are even listed above.

    build them or dont build them, its not up to us to convince you.
     
  16. joncnunn

    joncnunn Senior Java Wizard Moderator

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    I find scouts map type & size dependent.
    On a small map, I don't find them useful.

    On a huge map though, they are quite nice.

    Also if you happen to be playing the Mongolian scenario, lowly scouts make cheap MP.
     
  17. TW_Honorius

    TW_Honorius Warlord

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    Well, the reason I started this thread was I read that everyone builds scouts, everyone who asks for build queue get answered with scout scout, so I was curious if its necessary. and this thread has proven to me that scouts are very situational, and not always the case as I perceived it to be by reading the forums.
     
  18. AznWarlord

    AznWarlord Monarch

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    I skip the scout sometimes, but in those cases I go Monument first. I'd rather get a 2 turn head start popping goody huts without having to worry about terrain, maybe snag an early tech or pop. And I generally hate when my warrior gets upgraded to Spearman, which for some reason is ALWAYS the first ruin my warrior pops.
     
  19. Mudcrab

    Mudcrab Chieftain

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    I always scout scout monument warrior.

    After that the situation dictates the build order

    2 x scouts is great because:
    1- You send them E and W, exploring both directions.
    2- The starting warrior is used to circle the capital. Upon completion of the circuit, the 2 Scouts are built and the Warrior is used to defend against Barbs and hostile civs.
    3- The scouts pop ruins and find natural wonders for the bonuses
    4- The scouts explore a larger area quicker than the Warriors - good to find undiscoverd ruins in very rugged terrain. Also, you have a larger area in which to plan you 2nd and 3rd cities. Also, you have made your self aware of the nearby civs who could go for the city spots you desire. That is, you have explored around the other civs, and noting where the resources are, you can make a guess as to where these civs will likely settle, and therefore you can decide to compete for these spots or not.
    5- You explore as much of the map as possible before being restricted by borders, allowing you plan you attack of your neighbors in order - eg knowing where Iron is, who has access to it, or selecting a route to position your forces before DOW. This point is for those, like me, who dont like to open my borders unless for a direct benefit.
     
  20. snarzberry

    snarzberry Emperor

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    The other reason, that's been sort of hinted at, is that by knowing the size and shape of the landmass you're on, the terrain features, what other civs exist on it and their position in relation to each other and to you is the information that you need in order to form your overall plan about how you're going to go about winning the game, what's usually called your grand strategy. The better informed that strategy is the more likely that the plan you put into effect is sound. This is where the most skill in the game lies, coming up with sensible long term plans.
     

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