cooperative opponents?

[57%]

Anyone else notice that in some games, the computer players refuse to fight other computer-controlled nations? I don't know what the commonalities are - difficulty, certain maps/scenarios, or what, but I really wish they'd act normally. They'll get belligerent towards you, but not with each other. Real dull.

I'm playing on Marla Singer's Earth map (excellent, by the way), and noticed that there has never been a single war until I started one. I noticed this happening once before on a random map, but now it looks like a pattern.

Is this a known misfeature? Thanks!

 

[Zachriel]

I don't see this in my games. I often watch as one of my opponents keeps getting bigger at the expense of its neighbors. I usually try to support the weaker civ.

 

[eyrei]

In my last game the Russians, a long time ally of mine, began trading oil to the Persians, who were not exactly friendly. I asked Russia what they would need for a trade embargo, and they said nothing would persuade them. I switched my economy so I was producing 600+ gold per turn and offered it to the Russians for a trade embargo and still they said no. I imagine the Persians were paying handsomely for that oil, but not that well. I ended up just getting the Russians to declare war on the Persians through an MPP before they could build many oil-based units. It would have been a lot more fun if the trade embargo had worked though. It seemed the game needed the Persians to have oil no matter what. By the way, I controlled all of the other excess oil on the planet.

 

[Magnus]

my last game I was Egypt and had Rome as my neighbor and shared a good sized continent with Greece and Aztecs. Well, Rome (as always) decided it was time to crush me, and it was just after I had traded them a couple techs (including Chivalry) for iron. So I got a couple knights and a few pikemen and now I can't make any more, and they have legionaries crawling all over the place, and I have to replace my losses with horsemen. Anyway, I ask for assistance from the Aztecs and Greeks, and they will have no part of it - i have to fight this one alone. And I do. With the aid of catapults weakening their offensives, I am able to fend off their invasion and inflict high casualties, but there really is no way I can counter-attack. Well, their losses were so staggering, that I figured they MUST be weakening on their other fronts - so I again aske the Greeks and Aztecs if they want to join in - and they accept!!!! and Rome immediately sues for peace with me, but I know I have to wait 20 turns before I can end the alliance and keep my rep in good condition.

and the punchline. as soon as the war gets interesting, wouldnt you know a Roman city culturally flips to me --- and the city is SITTING on an iron resource and is connected to me by roads... I reckon at that point I could have taken them on alone.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Magnus
my last game I was Egypt and had Rome as my neighbor and shared a good sized continent with Greece and Aztecs. Well, Rome (as always) decided it was time to crush me, and it was just after I had traded them a couple techs (including Chivalry) for iron. So I got a couple knights and a few pikemen and now I can't make any more, and they have legionaries crawling all over the place, and I have to replace my losses with horsemen. Anyway, I ask for assistance from the Aztecs and Greeks, and they will have no part of it - i have to fight this one alone. And I do. With the aid of catapults weakening their offensives, I am able to fend off their invasion and inflict high casualties, but there really is no way I can counter-attack. Well, their losses were so staggering, that I figured they MUST be weakening on their other fronts - so I again aske the Greeks and Aztecs if they want to join in - and they accept!!!! and Rome immediately sues for peace with me, but I know I have to wait 20 turns before I can end the alliance and keep my rep in good condition.

and the punchline. as soon as the war gets interesting, wouldnt you know a Roman city culturally flips to me --- and the city is SITTING on an iron resource and is connected to me by roads... I reckon at that point I could have taken them on alone.

The AI civs were probably scared of the Romans military might until you knocked them down a peg or two. I often see the entire world gang up on one backwards, insignificant civ because they are the weakest. This prompted me to start maintaining a larger military.

 

[giffy]

I have often been able to pit the Ai's against each other. In my current game France the second largest state after me, delcared war against me. I ellisted the help of the Romans who share a continant with france. Within a about 20 turns france was wiped of the map and thanks to some blockading I wound up with all of the good cities.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Magnus
my last game I was Egypt and had Rome as my neighbor
. . .
and the punchline. as soon as the war gets interesting, wouldnt you know a Roman city culturally flips to me --- and the city is SITTING on an iron resource and is connected to me by roads... I reckon at that point I could have taken them on alone.

As I often quote on this forum from Star Trek, the good guys win only if they are very, very careful.

That's a good Civ3 story combining elements of diplomacy, patience and war. Love it!

 

[57%]

Thanks for the responses, everyone!

But that's not quite what I meant. In some games, I can make wars, they can start wars with me, and I can even drag others into alliances with me in my existing wars; but the AI _never_ starts a war with another AI opponent.

It's very boring when it happens, and you realize that for the entire game of several thousand years that there will be zero change in the geo-political landscape that doesn't directly involve you.

 

[Magnus]

right Ok, gotcha

an easy solution come to mind.

get a whole bunch of civs and squeeze them into a smaller than optimum map (use the editor to accomplish this... 8 on a TINY or all 16 on a STANDARD, for example) - the one thing the AI most certainly will fight over - is space. Wind them up and watch them go.

 

[cutiestar]

I actually also was thinking the AI never bothers to go to war with each other unless i start something, until suddenly a pop up on my screen saying the Indians have been destroyed by germany, and then on the world map some nations seem to slowly be getting smaller sometimes.

Then i figured since i have the "show enemy moves" turned off, and some of those other animation things, obviously the AI is duking it out, but I just never see it or hear about it unless it affects me, in way of any Alliances i might of had.

 

[bst1]

Establish embassies with everyone and you'll get more detailed news like when wars start and end, MPP and trade embargo signings etc.

 

[Moulton]

I have seen several indications of wars, without any notification. In my last game, at one point I was scanning Egypts latest map with interest, looking for coal and oil and rubber in their territory, to see if they had any. They didnt have oil or rubber... I noticed a number of cities with the traditional American names.... and a fe with Bab names. Then I ran across a couple of their Russian caravels with elite status I dont thinkk the AI fights barbarians, but just because I have never seen it, doesnt make it so.
They got that status in a fight somewhere, though--theoretically, at least.
Now in my current game i received notice that Egypt declared war on Germany. I am in no way involved, did not instigate, encourage or tape part in it. then the Aztecs and romans joined in. I was fighting the Romans, and I assure you they did not need to fighting on two fronts. Maybe they were trying to drag Egypt into a war with me. Too bad, they didnt. would have been fun.

 

[Greadius]

My first game on the real world map I had that same issue. 16 Civs, everyone land grabbed like crazy (I got the most ), but no wars. Part of it I think was the fact that I wouldn't start one, or give reason to. I controlled every resource at least once and freely traded with my neighbors... I would sell techs to backward Civs at a 'discount' price. I also made MPP with almost every Civ, rotating through them depending on how much spare cash I had. There was frequently a coalition around me that made up 3/4's of the world's military.
The result- 1950's the world had been at peace the whole time and I managed an expansive island nation from the tip of east russia through the Australia continent with burstling coffers of gold... but I was bored senseless.
Just before I gave up because of boredom, I started a war with the Chinese and half the world joined in. I was just curious, but they were definately blood thirsty; just not with one another.

I think when the AI randomizes your opponents there are peace mongers and war mongers. That time I got all peaceful Civs; the next game I played every Civ was constantly at all out war.

 

[SGX]

AI does declare war on the other AI...

But usually they only do so because one civ is falling and they all pounce at once.

 

[Psychlone]

If the computer isn't being aggressive enough amongst themselves, it's not too difficult to set them on collision courses with each other.

Here's a trick I use frequently against militaristic civs (you know, the ones where you can pretty much only ever give ultimatums, get out or declare war). Get a MPP with someone, anyone, really, but preferably someone large, with a land border to the civ you want to beat up on. Then, stick a worker near the border of the civ you want to go to war with. Give them the get out or declare war ultimatum, and they'll declare war every time. They'll swoop in to get that tasty worker you left as bait, and trigger the MPP.

If a civ decides I look weak and declares war on me, I will always bribe other civs to declare an alliance against them. If you have luxuries or a tech nobody else has, this is very easy to do, and you can usually get 2 or 3 allies. I was recently spending a lot of time going "oh my God, oh my God" as billions of Aztecs were swarming my territory, and thinking the end was upon me. I fended them off for a few turns until I had researched Gunpowder, then used this crass bribery to get all 3 of their neighbors to declare war on them, and was laughing aloud as their troops were practically tripping over themselves to go defend their homeland. Within 5 turns there wasn't an Aztec left upon my soil, and I was able to scrape up a small offensive force to go take one of their cities.

Talk about snatching victory from the jaws of defeat!

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Moulton
I dont thinkk the AI fights barbarians, but just because I have never seen it, doesnt make it so.
They got that status in a fight somewhere, though--theoretically, at least.

My elite warrior was exploring a neighboring civ, when suddenly I read a message which says there was a huge barbarian outbreak near one of my cities. My warrior was nearby, and I saw them moving towards, not my civ, but my neighbor. They hit my neighbor's city big time.

 

[spork]

I have a new policy where I try to prevent AI wars as much as possible. Almost always, they are against my interest. My current game is on Diety on a standard map that started with 8 civs. By year 0 there were only two civs on my own continent, me and the rather powerful Zulu. On the other continent were the much more powerful France and Germany, who together ate up Russia before the continents even made contact. Then there was a minor civ, the Iroquois, off on an island.

As you can imagine, I was worried about France and Germany, especially Germany. Each had three or four wonders, and Germany had a huge army. They discovered a fairly large unsettled island near my continent which I was trying to take over, and quickly sent over some colonists. I was getting worried.

So I thought: hey, since they have such a long border, wouldn't it be great if they sort of neutralized each other by going to war? It was good idea with some very bad consequences.

I signed an MPP with France because I thought that if they weaken Germany enough I could take some territorry from them. This didn't deter the Germans, who saw my badly protected cities on the island they were colonizing and decided they want them. France honorably joined the war against Germany, and I cheered.

What happened then was a catastrophe. Germany pretty much forgot about me, which is good. I cleared them from the island and had no trouble holding it. The trouble was on the other continent. I noticed that France initially lost a city. Then two, then four, and a few turns later, the German armies had Paris within their sights. This was terrible. I know that I will have to fight Germany eventually. They are the world's best researchers and have the highest culture and the largest army. With France, who was initially #2 in all these categories, totally swallowed up, I'm not sure how I'm going to stop the Germans. In losing France I also lost a great tech-brokering customer. (I purchased advanced techs from the Germans and sold them back to France to offset my costs. They were always happy to pay me well for them. In retrospect I think it was my money that allowed Germany to wage such a total war on their neighbors.)

Then I got a pretty cool role-playing idea: I want to liberate France! Unfortunately, some of their cities were razed, but I managed to settle the holes. After my MPP with France ran out I singed for peace with Germany, who lost all their colonies to me. I did this mainly so that I can establish an embassy in Berlin and steal techs from them. Sure, it may be more expensive than buying them, but I'll be damned if Germany gets another coin from me. I now have 20 cavalry on their continent and plan to redeclare war and liberate Paris. Then I'll hand it over to France, who are barely clinging on to existence on a tiny island. I plan to do this with all the other formerly French cities that haven't been razed. Well, if I can... Now that I can see past the German border I notice they have at least two armies with modern units... it won't be easy... but it's my duty to try.

This has been by far my most interesting game. Diety is actually hard, and you really have to think before you do anything. Sorry about my longwindedness, I know the topic is about inter-AI wars and that is what I meant to talk about. On Diety difficulty, I have come to think that AI wars are bad for me. They make the powerful states even stronger, and the weaker states, who were good trading partners, get shafted. If I play Diety again, I'll do my best to prevent AI wars.

 

[Moulton]

I have seen the barbs attack other civ cities... but have never seen a civ go after a barb camp or anything. I remember watching Australia (Marla's map) which was largely undeveloped, and full of barbs. It was too far away to make it practical for me, but I was watching from a remote scouting ship. Egypt and America had scouts and military units on the continent, scouting, but ignored the barbs. However, if the barbs attack cities, they probably also attack other civ ships, and that could eventually raise the civ ship to elite.

However, Last night, I was marshalling foces to invade and take the remaining Zulu cities, and get their coal--since I have none, and the zulus were getting testy again. Suddenly, the city with the coal deposit turned brown. No war, no notification, and it was much too far from any Russian city to be a culture flip. When I finally got a ship close enough to see what was going on, the Russians had landed an expeditionary force and were taking city by city. They never declared war, but some of theeir units were wounded.
This is a strange world. China is being super nice--being half my size, and borders next to mine. But she has 4 huge stacks standing around wishing for something to do. Aztecs are warring Germans, but not on either's soil. just on the colonies. America has half-dozen workers in my land, doing nothing, and gives me the snide "Oh is this your territory? We'll leave then." But they don't. I cant do anything, because they have an MPP with England, the only one who would sell me coal... and my rails arent finished. When the Trans-continental RailRoad is finished, or the trade runs out, whichever happens first, then I can do something. I need to rest a few turns from this last war, first.
Fortunately, I just completed the Universal Suffarage monument.. and will be ready to go to war again.
Maybe I should try the communism thing. I'm just too steeped in anti-communism rhetoric, personally, to want to use it.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Moulton
I have seen the barbs attack other civ cities... but have never seen a civ go after a barb camp or anything. I remember watching Australia (Marla's map) which was largely undeveloped, and full of barbs. It was too far away to make it practical for me, but I was watching from a remote scouting ship. Egypt and America had scouts and military units on the continent, scouting, but ignored the barbs. However, if the barbs attack cities, they probably also attack other civ ships, and that could eventually raise the civ ship to elite.

However, Last night, I was marshalling foces to invade and take the remaining Zulu cities, and get their coal--since I have none, and the zulus were getting testy again. Suddenly, the city with the coal deposit turned brown. No war, no notification, and it was much too far from any Russian city to be a culture flip. When I finally got a ship close enough to see what was going on, the Russians had landed an expeditionary force and were taking city by city. They never declared war, but some of theeir units were wounded.
This is a strange world. China is being super nice--being half my size, and borders next to mine. But she has 4 huge stacks standing around wishing for something to do. Aztecs are warring Germans, but not on either's soil. just on the colonies. America has half-dozen workers in my land, doing nothing, and gives me the snide "Oh is this your territory? We'll leave then." But they don't. I cant do anything, because they have an MPP with England, the only one who would sell me coal... and my rails arent finished. When the Trans-continental RailRoad is finished, or the trade runs out, whichever happens first, then I can do something. I need to rest a few turns from this last war, first.
Fortunately, I just completed the Universal Suffarage monument.. and will be ready to go to war again.
Maybe I should try the communism thing. I'm just too steeped in anti-communism rhetoric, personally, to want to use it.

If you built Universal Suffrage, you do not need to switch to communism unless you plan on fighting a very long war. Just get the civ you want to attack to declare war, and war weariness will not kick in for some time.

 

[Magnus]

Originally posted by Moulton
I have seen the barbs attack other civ cities... but have never seen a civ go after a barb camp or anything

Oh I do! It always seems they take the camp just before my warrior gets a chance to take it! Very frustrating.