1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Coronavirus 2: the Flattening

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Arwon, Apr 5, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Takhisis

    Takhisis Free Hong Kong

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    49,242
    Location:
    up yours!
    Which, in passing, is why I don't own a cellphone already, as I've already said, but mainly just proves how the aim of the government is, as Zelig posits, to memetically follow this plan:
    1. Quarantine-lockdown-shutdown!
    2. ?????? (actually, relentless media campaign)
    3. Profit!

    The ruling party here destroyed the economy with a decade of two-digit inflation, and widespread corruption that led to the state apparatus becoming effectively a gigantic, unescapable protection racket.
    Then, as posted over the years in the RD ‘Americas’ thread, for four years there was a different government that left the economy in disastrous-but-not-as-disastrous-as-would-have-been state (it was unfixable in the short term, especially without control of the legislature or most of the provincial governments) but did get a nice bit of work in with regards to stopping corruption.
    So now the government is0 calling for an end to moderation, saying that it was only a device to win the elections but they cannot be held up to their own promises. The purpose of all this is to blame the fight against Covid-19 for the ongoing, pre-existing recession and hyperinflation, and at the same time to exert and ever more asphyxiating control over the economy and society. Mandatory apps. Also, the government first forces businesses to shut down, then pays people's salaries with a mixture of the people's own money and printing more money (which is also the people's money) and now asks to have a share in businesses, essentially paving the way for expropriation. This, coupled with simply getting all of their former duly-convincted (they actually plead guilty, a lot of them) former officials who have suddenly been re-labelled ‘political prisoners’; this is, of course, happening while the judiciary and legislative branches of power have nearly stopped operating altogether.
     
  2. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    12,864
    In my case, convenience outweigh downsides. I'm not that interesting for anybody to spend resources tracking me.

    Read somewhere recently that Argentina economically was almost continuously on downward spiral (relative to other countries) for the last century. Before WW2 it was on par with USA and Canada by economic development. Don't know much details though.

    I don't know, the only way to make people install application is to connect it to some essential service which most people use. Banking, taxes, salaries, pensions, etc. Russian people considered quite obedient, but if our government simply demanded to install something, I think half of the country would show middle finger.
     
  3. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2001
    Messages:
    38,934
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
  4. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Messages:
    9,787
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    I don't think Argentina was even in the top 20 100 years ago.

    Germany was number 11 iirc.

    Top ten was the Anglosphere, France and and some other European nation's (per capita).
     
  5. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2017
    Messages:
    6,658
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Amsterdam
    A whole lot of countries missed after WW2, after the early 60ies, subsequent boats of new layers of economy.
    Just like a country with only a primary sector of agriculture and fishing with some normal minerals mining can never get to high GDP per capita... countries do need to add new families of economy to grow prosperity per capita.

    And yes... stupid events can destroy a lot, whether mainly domestic or external... who remembers that modern and rich Beirut as the Paris of the Middle East ?

    And catching up is very well doable... but it will need plan-economy-like determination and multi-partisan consensus to build up... also to keep the international sharks at enough distance.
    And that "multi-partisan consensus" is almost identical to constructive nationalism !

    And if a country is relatively small like Argentina, it will need to import knowledge of all kinds. From pure knowledge to applied knowledge in better machines or seeds or etc.

    And if the level of expectations of your population grows faster than your economy... like people expecting modern hospital health care with expensive devices and medicins you all have to import... you are screwed.

    You will have to build from the ground up.
     
    haroon and Birdjaguar like this.
  6. Arwon

    Arwon

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2006
    Messages:
    18,452
    Location:
    Canberra
    Most of the new cases this last week have been in Melbourne:

    upload_2020-5-25_9-23-8.png

    This chart ends on a Sunday so we'll see if there's many more today on Monday. Edit: only 2 more cases in Victoria today, both isolated travellers, which is really good news for the testing and tracing regime, since that's the main place which has been showing community transmission recently. If a cluster originating in a meat packing plant that got into a hospital and aged care home is being contained, that's a really good sign.

    In terms of remaining active cases, NSW still has a fair few more than elsewhere:

    upload_2020-5-25_9-24-24.png

    NSW seems to have a slower recovery rate, which I'm not entirely able to explain. It could be differences in testing regimes and how recovery is confirmed? Data differences surely the most likely thing here.

    Alternatively, I think NSW is housing the bulk of returning overseas infections, as well as cases infections from the cruise ship including staff, and it also had an aged care home in Western Sydney get very badly hit. That facility has now seen almost 20 deaths from 106 residents, and constitutes 20% of Australian deaths. It's possible they're having cases linger more because of more vulnerable elderly people with the virus.

    Also the ACT now at about 22 days without a new case. I'm still wearing a mask for bus trips to work tho. With NSW opening a lot of stuff back up, that's prime time for new cases to emerge here.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2020
    The_J likes this.
  7. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Messages:
    9,787
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    Total numbers are declining? Do they tell you how many cases are active.

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/

    600 active cases, still getting deaths?
     
  8. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    12,122
    It looks like I have to set some false news right.

    Argentinian total external debt in 2015, when the government you liked started: US $160 billion

    Argentina's total external debt in 2019, when the government you liked ended: US $280 billion

    The evolution of public debt in Argentina. Notice that the governments @Takhisis hated and blames for the debt ruled from 2003 to 2015 and had to manage the previous debt bust. Successfully.



    from here.
    In the meanwhile, that government you liked (and now classify as "not-so-disastrous) brought in the IMF. Again. And you know what goes with the IMF.

    Argentina was not running a sizeable trade deficit with the rest of the world in 2015-2019. So those $120 billion borrowed served what purpose? Cover for capital extraction done by the ruling elites, which they had to convert to US $ to put into foreign banks. Taking money out of the country and leaving behind debt. The first order of business of the new government in 2015 was to end capital controls. That it would lead to another bust was obvious, and I pointed it out on this forum, earning me constant childish insults from their resident fanboy.

    @Takhisis You have a sorry lot of politicians to choose from, I get it. You're not alone with that problem in the world. But saying that the gang of thieves who ran things there in 2015-2019 were less bad than the previous governments is just factually wrong.
     
  9. tuckerkao

    tuckerkao Prince

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2010
    Messages:
    525
    In South Korea, the government will trace those people who refuse to quarantine using the mini-devices which they must wear to go out. Also in Japan, the government contain the virus in the Tokyo area within around 6 weeks with only several dozens of new cases being reported nationwide daily.

    Michigan and Illinois on the other hand have the toughest lockdown policies and still keep seeing new surges and spikes of the infections due to the lack of testing kits early on.

    These are what the winners look like -
    Japan Coronavirus Cases - 05-24-2020.png

    South Korea Coronavirus Cases - 05-24-2020.png
     
  10. Birdjaguar

    Birdjaguar Hanafubuki Retired Moderator Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2001
    Messages:
    38,934
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    @tuckerkao No, you have it backward. We are #1 because we have the most. We have 100,000 deaths, the most. We are the winner. MAGA
     
    Grisu and Sommerswerd like this.
  11. Takhisis

    Takhisis Free Hong Kong

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2005
    Messages:
    49,242
    Location:
    up yours!
    Actually you are, because of big data.
    Since Peronism was founded in the 1940s. At the beginning of the 20th century Argentina had the 5th- or 6th-largest GDP per capita.
    But here you have 1/3 of the total population packed in in one urban area. There's police checkpoints everywhere and police are now obligated (by the president, not by actual legislation by Congress) to stop people, especially cars, at those checkpoints and demand to see their permits.
    Once again you post lies and half-truths which i've already seen on Telesur. You keep telling the entire rest of the forum how to live their lives and prescribe simple solutions to complex problems and you are a vocal supporter of Brexit, Donald Trump, Nicolás Maduro and a long list of other deplorables. Please stop embarrassing yourself.
    It is.
     
    haroon likes this.
  12. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

    Joined:
    Mar 6, 2006
    Messages:
    12,864
    I am, but owning smartphone has little to do with it, because most of this data is collected by google, microsoft and social networks.
    Google knows everything about you regardless if you have smartphone or not.

    Not the worst place to be born in the beginning of XX century, I guess. Considering what was happening in other countries in the first half of it.
     
  13. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Messages:
    9,787
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    By 1913 idk if things changed much but I had a different list.

    Unfortunately I don't have access to my University library anymore.

    Russia was on that list iirc. Around 18-23 iirc. If they made some different choices they would be a lot better off today.
    Tsar Nicholas not the Communists.
     
  14. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    16,627
    Location:
    Tir ná Lia
    The US and many European countries screwing this up is doing a number on pro-democracy causes around the world. I'm sick of seeing people pointing to this as evidence of the failure liberal democracy and of the decadence 'Western values' bring about.

    Not that authoritarian leadership is doing particularly well either, but they control the narrative in their territories and this is supplying them with plenty of ammo.
     
    Bamspeedy likes this.
  15. Arwon

    Arwon

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2006
    Messages:
    18,452
    Location:
    Canberra
    Australia's contact tracing app is a Bluetooth thing to track who you've been near, and I'm a bit skeptical of it working very well for a few reasons. But the NZ approach is basically a QR code scanner to create a "digital diary" for contact tracers, which seems like a more reliable approach as well as being better on privacy and personal security grounds.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2020
  16. Zardnaar

    Zardnaar Deity

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2003
    Messages:
    9,787
    Location:
    Dunedin, New Zealand
    I saw that last night. Signed the log book instead as I didn't have app installed.
     
  17. r16

    r16 not deity

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2008
    Messages:
    5,810
    ı heard it somewhere that Argentina had been bankrupt maybe 9 times since 1816 . lt is obviously the system there , like that Anglosaxon superiority and being the sole deserving agency to rule over Americas can not be challenged by Spanish speakers . And yes 1984s need some nurturing previous regimes to let them happen and yes am not living in that place and my experience of 1984 makes me shut up and refrain from taking sides , in case ı actually had enough information to have opinions and the like , but aren't you people lucky or something ? Rant over vaccines and New Turkey goes and wins another drone war , this in Libya ! And America considering this was like too far and Emirates have been allowed to down New Turkey drones again ! Fighting 1984 takes being a threat to America proper and the like , though it seems them Langley Boys might have grown up playing the same computer games ?
     
    Hrothbern likes this.
  18. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2005
    Messages:
    44,231
    Location:
    Pale Blue Dot youtube=wupToqz1e2g
    I'm lucky on that front, I purchased three washable ones. When I get home I just swish it around in soap water for a couple minutes or ten, rinse it and then air-dry it for a couple days.

    The goal is capturing people's exhaled vapour. If putting on their reusable masks when they get to the grocery store would contaminate their hands, their hands are contaminated regardless. If putting on your mask contaminates your mask, your hands are already contaminated. The mask is to protect other people, not to protect you.

    Thinking of the mask as a defensive item is going to create a much stricter set of protocols than vice versa
     
    Birdjaguar likes this.
  19. thetrooper

    thetrooper Schweinhund

    Joined:
    May 24, 2004
    Messages:
    7,318
    Location:
    Hinter feindlichen Linien!
    Eleven days without new (confirmed) cases in my city. Zero covid19 patients in our regional hospital.
     
    Hrothbern and The_J like this.
  20. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    12,122
    Don't worry too much about that. The world is seriously changing, both Singapore and China (which were on the winning side of changes in the 2000s and 2010s) are on the losing side of this one. Narrative control is not going to create foreign trade and the associated employment. Governments there have a real problem on their hands now. They're going to have to do more than propaganda.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page