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Coronavirus 3: The Resurgence

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by red_elk, Jun 27, 2020.

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  1. Seon

    Seon Not An Evil Liar

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    Social ostracization and expectation is one tool for passively enforcing what society deems a good behavior without bringing in state violence.

    Generally speaking the use of state violence is to be avoided. You are saying that since state is refusing to employ state violence to enforce a directive it should not be obeyed. Would you prefer it if the state actually used state violence to enforce this, or would you instead be reminding people to follow directive and ostracizing those who do not.
     
  2. tuckerkao

    tuckerkao King

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    The Japanese seems to obey the health orders more decently, as the result, they have only a bit over 21,000 total cases today compare to 3,100,000+ cases in the United States.
     
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  3. Commodore

    Commodore Deity

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    Not really. Because I can point to references in the Constitution, Supreme Court rulings, and federal law that all establish the government's authority to control immigration. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's government overreach.

    However on something like, say, red flag laws I can point to specific amendments of the Constitution that those violate which makes them government overreach.

    You joke, but I agree with this. Just because you might be doing something that makes people a little uneasy doesn't give those people the right to commit a crime against you. And yes, harassment is a crime.

    The mask thing is inconsequential. The real issue at hand is personal liberty versus authoritarianism. One the one hand, you have people that simply believe the choice as to how they want to go about society in the pandemic should be left up to each individual person. Then there are authoritarians who believe the government should be allowed to dictate what you can wear and where you can go and people should be forced to comply at any cost.

    And I say authoritarians because just look at some of the things said in earlier threads on this topic. There were more than a few members who expressed the opinion that those who refuse to comply should be jailed or that there needs to be a "reckoning" with those who do not comply. And I'm going to go ahead and assume that by "reckoning" they mean some sort of state-sponsored punishment and/or violence. At the very least, there is a significant faction of people who are salivating at the idea of the state forcing people to follow their rules and that makes them authoritarian jackholes.

    No. I would prefer it if everyone would mind their own damn business and stop worrying about what other people are doing. It's long been a personal philosophy of mine that most of the world's conflicts could be solved or prevented if people would just learn to keep to themselves and stop caring so much about what their neighbor is doing.
     
  4. Seon

    Seon Not An Evil Liar

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    The coronavirus doesn’t give a damn about your political opinion. It’s gonna spread and kill people unless people wear masks. You are saying that in this context we shouldn’t bother people who refuse to wear masks—despite the current situation meaning they put everyone else at non-negligent risk of death with their bad behavior.
     
  5. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

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    No, it isn't. Masks can slow the spread of this pandemic somewhere in the neighborhood of ~50%. This thing kills more Americans everyday than September 11th, 2001. And we started a decade of war over that, rightly or wrongly. This is life and death to people like the ones in my family, and yes: I conditionally support the use of force to reduce casualties in a pandemic. We certainly use it more poorly often enough. God willing should we find a vaccine that works well enough to give herd immunity if adopted over the necessary threshold, I am 100% in favor of prohibiting the healthy unvaccinated from attending schools or universities. Chicken pox? Fine, not serious enough. Deadly flu? Oh you betcha. Civilians have wartime footings to adopt as well.
     
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  6. GoodEnoughForMe

    GoodEnoughForMe n.m.s.s.

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    Why is making me wear a mask authoritarianism but not letting me go pantsless on the train with my hog dangling out NBD, can anyone anti-mask answer this is a cohesive way
     
  7. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    There is reasonable scope for exercising authority on this one. Here at least if you want to go indoors to do a job you have to wear a mask. Don't want to, either work from home if that's possible, or find yourself another job. If there is some genuine impediment no wearing a mask no one will be able to fire you. Likewise if you want to shop indoors you have to wear a mask. Don't want to, find someplace else to shop in (there are always those who don't care, and some open-air markets), or put off your buy until this is done. Just don't expect to be able to throw a tantrum demanding to enter someplace where masks are to be worn.

    To those who would do that it'll be said: it's not about your safety, it's other people's safety and they do have a right to defend it. The police does get called here on situations like that. No one is persecuting people who don't wear masks outdoors, or alone, or (realistically) with other people who don't mind. And a mask is not some kind of face tattoo, its a temporary public health contingency. Why this became a political issue in some countries baffles me.
     
  8. onejayhawk

    onejayhawk Afflicted with reason

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    I talked to a survivor today. He missed two months of work and still feels lingering effects, but he's cleared to be in public. Another survivor is over 60 and he had almost no symptoms.

    J
     
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  9. Arwon

    Arwon

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    I dunno how big education is as an export for the US, but it's Australia's third biggest export after iron ore and coal, bigger than natural gas or tourist travel in 4th and 5th.

    So the whole education export sector being essentially shut down to all people who didn't stay here for the duration of the pandemic is probably gonna turn out to be one of the biggest impacts of having to close the borders.
     
  10. Zelig

    Zelig Beep Boop

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    How about healthy unvaccinated people who've already had COVID-19?
     
  11. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    Nope, you're wrong. Harassment might be my only viable form of self-defense from an invisible threat. You're not applying a scalable sustainability system, and are merely insisting that your ironclad version of morality is the superior one. It doesn't work like that, where people can just have a miasma of threat and expect to walk around uncontested. If you're swinging your fists, and you want to come into my space, you need to calm your fists. If you're blocking where I have a right to be, you need to calm your fists. It's an invisible threat to people and they have no way to discern if the maskless person is safe outside of statistics.

    Now, it could be that in this specific scenario, it's an over-reaction. But that's a statistical question, not a question of principles.

    Yeah, and it's why I don't really listen when my table begs me to not drive after a few beers. None of their business.
     
  12. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    This second wave in the US appears to be much less lethal comparing to the first one. Like, several times less.
    Anyone has the explanation? We've already discussed the fact that mortality in "second wave" countries is reduced and there was a version that the reason is different age structure of population in Brazil and India. But this shouldn't apply to the New York State and Texas/California.
    My idea was that the virus has mutated and less lethal strains spread more quickly.
     
  13. Commodore

    Commodore Deity

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    There is no reasonable or realistic scenario in which literally walking up to someone (thus putting you in greater danger of infection) to confront them for not wearing a mask would be your only viable means of self-defense.

    When I said it's inconsequential, I meant in regards to the political fight over the issue. The political fight is not one specifically about masks, but one of personal liberty versus authoritarianism.

    Well I for one don't think the latter example is something society should be doing either. I personally might think it's weird that you aren't wearing pants in public, but I'm not going to confront you about it. Who knows, maybe you have a very good reason as to why you are walking around sans pants.
     
  14. tuckerkao

    tuckerkao King

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    They will need the antibody tests see if the immunity still active.
     
  15. Zelig

    Zelig Beep Boop

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    Antibody tests don't necessarily tell you that. Assume the infection was on the same time frame as the vaccine. Do there exist any vaccines that promote a stronger immune response than the actual infection?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  16. Lemon Merchant

    Lemon Merchant Mercatrix Citrorum Moderator

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    I'll give you a little statistic or two:

    My province locked down after the first few COVID cases were discovered in the province. As a result, out of a population of 1 million people, we had just over 1000 cases (that is 0.1% of the population) and a total of 58 deaths during the time that the disease was in effect. (We are getting a small resurgence now, but that is because people are getting complacent and refusing to wear masks and social distance from each other.)

    I look at wearing a mask as an IQ test, and most people fail it miserably. A mask doesn't really help a lot to keep you yourself from getting the virus, but it does help you not transmit the virus. As someone said upthread, it can help slow spread by about 50%. Why wouldn't you wear a mask if it helps to protect you and other people? It is the height of arrogance to assume that you have this personal liberty not to wear one. You have a duty to society not to infect others with a disease that has far reaching consequences beyond just death. What is the matter with people who refuse to wear them? Do their widdle feewings get hurt? Awww. Tell me about your God given rights when you are laying in an ICU struggling to take a breath and your lungs are full of fluid. Even afterward, should you live, your lungs will be compromised for the rest of your life. Who the hell would want that? Why take the chance yourself? Why take the chance of inflicting that one someone else?

    No one who is bellyaching about mask wearing has ever seen someone in an ICU who has COVID. It isn't pretty, and it's something that sticks with you when you see it. But hell, have your fun and cry about your liberties. Just stay the hell away from me.
     
  17. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy You gave me my own tail?

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    If the difference in source of immunity matters, Zelig, then it matters. If it doesn't, it doesn't. I'll need to take my evidence of is from the experts on is. I'll then get my oughts from those that have proven to be experts on oughts.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  18. Zelig

    Zelig Beep Boop

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    Because I find them unpleasant, and would prefer to be infected with SARS-CoV-2 at a time and convenience of my choosing, which would be even more effective than a mask at protecting others.

    How much money would you pay if you could exchange money for the ability to be entirely non-infectious to others, so that you'd never need a mask? I'd pay at least thousands. Ergo, wearing a mask is of negative utility of some thousands of dollars for me.
     
  19. Takhisis

    Takhisis Free Hong Kong

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    In yet another example of cartoon villainy,

    Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro vetoes Covid-19 protections for indigenous people

    Sao Paulo (CNN) - Brazilian President Jair Bolsonaro has vetoed several points of a law aimed at protecting indigenous communities against Covid-19 on Wednesday, according to the government's official journal.
    The proposed legislation establishes an emergency plan to combat the pandemic in indigenous territories and classifies indigenous people and other traditional communities as "groups in situations of extreme vulnerability." Under the law, the groups would also considered at high risk for public health emergencies.
    Bolsonaro vetoed points which assured access to drinking water, free distribution of hygiene products and the distribution of cleaning and disinfection materials to indigenous communities. He also vetoed a proposal ensuring mandatory emergency funds for indigenous people's healthcare.
    He additionally vetoed the emergency provision of more hospital beds and intensive care units (ICUs) for indigenous people. Parts of the law allowing for the acquisition of ventilators and blood oxygenation machines were also rejected.
    But the vetoes are not final. The law's text, which has already been approved by the country's Congress and Senate, must now be voted upon again. If a majority in both houses vote against the President's vetoes, the law will be approved in its entirety. Otherwise, the law will move forward without the vetoed parts.
    Brazil has recorded more than 1.6 million cases of coronavirus, the second highest tally globally behind the US, according to Johns Hopkins University.
    The country's indigenous citizens have been hit hard by the pandemic. Indigenous people in Brazil often live in communities which are far from hospitals, in areas which often lack basic infrastructure. Those who move to towns or cities can end up in precarious living conditions with few public services, increasing their vulnerability to health issues.
    According to the country's Special Indigenous Health Service (SESAI), more than 8000 Brazilian indigenous people have so far contracted the coronavirus since the beginning of the pandemic. The service only counts people living in indigenous territories, urban centers.
    The publication of the new legislation, with Bolsonaro's vetoes, took place on the same day that Supreme Court judge Luis Roberto Barroso ordered the government to take measures to protect such communities from Covid-19.
    Barroso asked the government to create a national emergency plan, to install sanitary barriers and to establish a "Situation Room" to manage the response to the disease in indigenous territories.
    Bolsonaro, who tested positive for coronavirus on Tuesday, has repeatedly dismissed the threat of the disease, and has a historically antagonistic relationship with indigenous Brazilians. Many rights activists have protested the increase of illegal mining and logging on their lands which followed Bolsonaro's rise to power.​
     
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  20. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I am sorry to hear that your life was damaged by other people choosing to wear masks. Or, if you were forced to, but damaged by it, I'm sorry.
    I'm dealing with clients these days who've been stuck without visitors from friends or family for months now, and have no hope in sight. On their end, I really hope people choose to wear masks, but I can imagine that someone might have been damaged by the rules.
     
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