Coronavirus: awaiting for the new wave

[Arwon]

Unfortunately I fear it would be politically impossible for a country that has a land border.

Not sure about this, there's plenty of countries with land borders maintaining mandatory quarantine requirements and "citizenship/residency or approved purposes only" requirements for entry. Hell parts of Canada are doing that domestically, and Australian states just got finished doing likewise, with the other states all fully closing borders to Victoria until the virus was gone.

Lockdowns also tend to restrict movement so strongly that they de facto close the borders to movement from people externally to the locked down country or region, anyway.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Hey, I am certainly not arguing for a worse lockdown than the current one. Just saying that perhaps it could be better employed on the part of the population which is high risk.
Not that it matters now - everything is locked down

The seniors in homes and facilities have already been locked down for most of this year, and not allowed to be in the same room with anyone but nurses.

There's only so far you can lock people down before you have massive mental health issues and survival issues for people without adequate support systems.

The idea of having a lockdown targeted at like 20% of the population, and everyone with regular contact with them, while the rest of the populace goes abut life normally, is not feasible. You are in practice talking about much much more than the "mere" locking up of the very elderly you are imagining, and you're also talking about indefinite lockdowns without a possible end date in sight, which are the main thing which make effective lockdowns bearable (ask the people of Melbourne, where it was like over 2 months of hard lockdown to fully eliminate the thing).

The kind of lockdown Kyriakos is talking about would violate the Charter rights of two segments of people here: the seniors (discrimination on the basis of age) and disabled (discrimination on the basis of disability).

And while I am fully aware that viruses don't respect constitutional rights, this sets precedents that should not be set.

Not sure about this, there's plenty of countries with land borders maintaining strong quarantine requirements and "citizenship and essential purpose only" requirements for entry.

Yep. While there have been instances where certain people have been allowed in without quarantining (something we're not happy about), Canada's been reasonably strict about this. Some Americans didn't think the rules applied to them when they claimed they lived in Alaska and could therefore drive across Alberta/BC, but they've found out otherwise (the rules say they're to go by direct routes, stopping only for fuel, food, bathroom, etc. - not sightseeing in Banff).

 

[Kyriakos]

I think depression issues as well as serious economic issues will hit hard when the pandemic is (one way or another) "over".
Practically everything was shut down for a year in most countries.

 

[innonimatu]

Recent statements of the German health minister:

“The goal is to get approval before Christmas,” he told a press conference in Berlin. “We want to start vaccinating in Germany before the end of the year.” Italy’s health minister, Roberto Speranza, said he hoped the EMA “will be able to approve the Pfizer BioNTech vaccine ahead of schedule”.
The German government has previously insisted an emergency approval of the type given by the UK and elsewhere might have a negative impact on the public’s willingness to be vaccinated - Germany is believed to have more anti-vaxxers and vaccine sceptics than other countries – but Spahn on Sunday told a coronavirus summit between the government and state leaders that had Germany gone it alone it would have been “markedly quicker”.
Addressing criticism that the UK, Canada and the US approved vaccines sooner than the EU, Spahn said the EMA’s ruling would be “the world’s first regular approval” of a vaccine and involve the participation of experts from all 27 EU member countries.
“We have said from the start that we’ll do this on a European level and not on a national level … The ‘us’ is stronger than the ‘I’,” Spahn said. “This is good news for the whole of the EU.”
“We dug deeper into the data, and undertook a more granular investigation of the data … so it took additional time to evaluate it.”

Germany demanded, the european regulator obeyed, the vaccine will be approved earlier.

One has to ask: wasn't the purpose of the regulator to evaluate the pros and cons of the vaccine, possibly not approving it? How come it is a settled fact that its will be approved, before it is approved? If the regulator is still evaluating it, how can anyone state that it will win approval? If it has already bee verified safe, why is the regulator still looking at it?

Answer: the European Medicines Agency is a rubber-stamping body. They cannot actually evaluate a new medicine because the outcome is politically set before the evaluation is even done. Those "experts from all 27 countries" are acting as political appointees obedient to powers above.

But said minister asserts that "We dug deeper into the data, and undertook a more granular investigation of the data” and that it is “the world’s first regular approval”.

Manipulation is now shameless, and politicians are so dumb that they think only of today, the propaganda they believe they need today. Run for the hills...

 

[amadeus]

Not sure about this, there's plenty of countries with land borders maintaining mandatory quarantine requirements and "citizenship/residency or approved purposes only" requirements for entry.

At the official borders, yes. My concern for a policy of eradication is that if illegal aliens are crossing the border they could bring it in.

I think it should have been done, but I’m not going to cry if the army has to be called in to stop aliens coming across the border.

 

[FriendlyFire]

South Korea declares national emergancy over 1000 Coranvirus cases per day
Meanwhile in the USA with 280,000 new cases per day .........

 

[Arwon]

At the official borders, yes. My concern for a policy of eradication is that if illegal aliens are crossing the border they could bring it in.

I think it should have been done, but I’m not going to cry if the army has to be called in to stop aliens coming across the border.

Tbh that sort of crossing is a pretty minor danger if it exists at all with people trying to sneak into a locked down economy.

The point is not literally nobody enters, the point is a series of 98% effective measures, one of which is mandatory quarantine on entry and no discretionary travel.

 

[red_elk]

We've had up to +35.

We have had +35 temperatures. The lowest it'll get is still +14 ºC, so they'll just burn off.

+35 can happen in Moscow too. We had actually +38 in 2010, but it was quite disastrous (mass peat fires around the city). Record low is -42. You are close to the ocean, it smooths out temperature variations.

 

[Zardnaar]

+35 can happen in Moscow too. We had actually +38 in 2010, but it was quite disastrous (mass peat fires around the city). Record low is -42. You are close to the ocean, it smooths out temperature variations.

Yeah you get warm days in Siberia. As I understand it further away from ocean cit can get really cold. Throw in Himalayas as well.

We get microclimates here. Drive 100 km in any direction you can get a different climate.

 

[The_J]

Wouldn't a better move to deal with covid be to create a multiple of the current number of covid-dealing medical facilities, and then have a lockdown only on people in the groups of high risk? (mostly the very old, but also those with pre-existing health issues of note).
Cause it seems that the massive number of deaths is often due to the facilities being too few to handle all patients decently.

The idea of having a lockdown targeted at like 20% of the population, and everyone with regular contact with them, while the rest of the populace goes abut life normally, is not feasible. You are in practice talking about much much more than the "mere" locking up of the very elderly you are imagining, and you're also talking about indefinite lockdowns without a possible end date in sight, which are the main thing which make effective lockdowns bearable (ask the people of Melbourne, where it was like over 2 months of hard lockdown to fully eliminate the thing).

Besides the other things which were said, you also need to take into account about how many people we are talking.
In the last thread, @Hrothbern posted the vaccination plan from the Dutch government, which showed that basically 50% of the adult population is in the priority group for the vaccine.

Germany demanded, the european regulator obeyed, the vaccine will be approved earlier.

By 1 week.
I actually need to ask a friend of mine if she's happy to not work over Christmas (initial deadline was Dec 29), or unhappy because there's more work before (now deadline Dec 21).

One has to ask: wasn't the purpose of the regulator to evaluate the pros and cons of the vaccine, possibly not approving it? How come it is a settled fact that its will be approved, before it is approved? If the regulator is still evaluating it, how can anyone state that it will win approval? If it has already bee verified safe, why is the regulator still looking at it?

Answer: the European Medicines Agency is a rubber-stamping body. They cannot actually evaluate a new medicine because the outcome is politically set before the evaluation is even done. Those "experts from all 27 countries" are acting as political appointees obedient to powers above.

Pretty sure there's not outcome which will satisfy you. You'd be equally unhappy if they didn't approve.

 

[Kyriakos]

Inland tends to be a lot colder here too. Which is another positive of living in a country where no inland part is that far from the sea anyway - but the coldest temperatures are in north Macedonia (I don't mean the former Former Yugoslav Republic ), where it routinely gets to -20 and sometimes -25 during winter.
In Thessalonike I don't recall anything as cold as -15, but I freeze at -5 so it doesn't matter.

 

[Zardnaar]

Inland tends to be a lot colder here too. Which is another positive of living in a country where no inland part is that far from the sea anyway - but the coldest temperatures are in north Macedonia (I don't mean the former Former Yugoslav Republic ), where it routinely gets to -20 and sometimes -25 during winter.
In Thessalonike I don't recall anything as cold as -15, but I freeze at -5 so it doesn't matter.

-5 to -10 is about as cold as it gets. That's probably deep south Alpine Areas. Up north it will rarely hit 0 unless you have a rare cold snap.

A specific town in a specific area with microclimate has the record at -20 or -21 though. It's not normally that cold in winter though.

Hoar frosts are a thing though.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ne...er-central-otago-wakes-to-hoar-frost.amp.html

Close to "Rohan" that article.

Or
https://www.odt.co.nz/regions/slideshow-life-freezer


Not super cold as such but the fog or moisture in the air freezes..

 

[r16]

they can NOT delay the vaccine any longer , because it will be part and parcel of the , well , payback period , because of the things that have happened , which also proved there are like too many cowards who are singularly failing to press the advantage . You know , all that talk of embedding people with chips .

 

[amadeus]

Tbh that sort of crossing is a pretty minor danger if it exists at all with people trying to sneak into a locked down economy.

My border policy in this case is simple: closed means closed. Wall, army, whatever. Nobody gets in without going through official channels.

My patience has long gone! I don’t mean with you, of course.

 

[Bamspeedy]

30,000 truck drivers crossing the border daily, legally, is more of a concern for virus spreading than the illegals crossing on foot.

 

[amadeus]

That can be stopped or managed.

America doesn’t have enough food/junk to last us three months without having to drive some in? Find it hard to believe.

 

[innonimatu]

Pretty sure there's not outcome which will satisfy you. You'd be equally unhappy if they didn't approve.

You are wrong. I think the vaccine sould not be approved for at least 6 months more, while trials are completed. I also think, and said it so here, that this problem can only be dealt with as Australia, China, etc have done. The vaccine neither ends transmission not can be deployed quickly anyway, it's an exercise in propaganda to pretend that "something is being done".

If the goal were to reduce, eventually end deaths quickly, a lockdown combined with strict transit controls until the virus is eradicated works. That has been proven. And would work in about 8 weeks to bring deaths no near zero. While the propagandizers of the "vaccine solution" themselves admit that rolling it out will take over a year.

The vaccine solution is no solution to the ongoing deaths and crisis. It's an excuse to let it go on. Why are you falling for this propaganda coup?

Sometimes I do despair of democracy. People suffer due to the obvious, crass incompetence of their governments. And still they act like I trust you! bring it on, I want more! The more despaired they are, the more gullible they get.

 

[Zelig]

Hell parts of Canada are doing that domestically

They are, but it doesn’t let them notably ease restrictions. There’s enough leakage that those parts still have indoor dining closed, mask mandate, social distancing, max 5-person social gatherings, etc. just to keep daily case numbers low.

 

[Takhisis]

+35 can happen in Moscow too. We had actually +38 in 2010, but it was quite disastrous (mass peat fires around the city). Record low is -42. You are close to the ocean, it smooths out temperature variations.

Yeah, it means we can get weeks on end of temperatures above 30 ºC. The government admits that it doesn't, in fact, have any Russian vaccines™ at hand but they will get some soon™.

There is a story about how they actually signed up to co-operate with Pfizer on testing their vaccine but since Pfizer is evil western capitalist they passed on the second part (actually using a vaccine) and went for a Russian anti-imperialist vaccine (they haven't heard, apparently, that the USSR doesn't exist anymore) which the Russian government itself says it cannot produce.

The heavy-handed paternalistic handling of the pandemic and restrictions by the government has meant that, in effect, once the government said ‘there's a vaccine coming -have hope!’ people just started organising clandestine massive events such as raves, pool parties, and the like, eventually culminating in Maradona's funeral and the River Plate victory parade. Which makes the recent rise in cases sadly explainable.

 

[red_elk]

There is a story about how they actually signed up to co-operate with Pfizer on testing their vaccine but since Pfizer is evil western capitalist they passed on the second part (actually using a vaccine) and went for a Russian anti-imperialist vaccine (they haven't heard, apparently, that the USSR doesn't exist anymore) which the Russian government itself says it cannot produce.

Why is this a problem? I always though Argentine is an evil western capitalist country, you should get along well with Pfizer.