Coronavirus, now treatable with ForXthia!

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by El_Machinae, Oct 11, 2021.

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  1. Sofista

    Sofista Deity

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    I'm not getting out of my door without a mask.
    I'm going to do it until I hear from good authority that the coast is clear.
     
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  2. Hrothbern

    Hrothbern Deity

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    So do I

    Hopefully some good news on effect third shot
    From Dutch National news:
    https://nos.nl/liveblog/2402469-riv...n-pfizer-meldt-hoge-effectiviteit-boosterprik

     
  3. Zelig

    Zelig Beep Boop

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    As little as possible, and only when mandated to do so, because I think the mandates are misplaced - mask mandates should come after enforced paid sick leave, ventilation mandates, and vaccine mandates have all failed.
     
  4. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    It's only a mask, so who cares, I wear it all the time. It's not like I'm being asked to stick anything up my butt
     
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  5. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    Hmm, well at least you have a line in the sand that's good.
     
  6. warpus

    warpus In pork I trust

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    I mean, the line is so far from "wearing a mask is a problem".. that it's essentially like saying that: "You won't eat M&Ms while somebody is stabbing you with a knife? Is that where you draw the line for eating M&M's?"

    Most people who complain about masks are self-pompous crybabies
     
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  7. stfoskey12

    stfoskey12 Emperor of Foskania

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    The pandemic started over 17 months ago. Surely that would be long enough to compare the model with empirical data. Have there been studies on how often people who got infected in March or April 2020 are getting infected now?
     
  8. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Vaccines do not remove the material to burn to a degree that will allow this disease to be eradicated without the interventions we already knew prior to even having vaccines.
    The people who dictate policy decided they wouldn't bother organizing eradication then. And even though vaccines make it easier (faster) to achieve eradication, they are still deciding to not bother doing it. Worse, in several countries - and Australia is an obvious case - vaccines are the excuse to allow covid to run rampart. You know that. But they were the excuse since the beginning to not do eradication: "we'll end the pandemic it with vaccines".

    I know vaccines work to reduce the impact and spread of the pandemic, though I reserve opinion on how much until I observe them working during winter here. What I've been trying to explain here is that they don't work to end the pandemic, and were never really meant to work for that, they were the excuse to "normalize" this pandemic.

    So are we to continue masked forever?

    Just as I immediately could see that vaccines would not end the pandemic, I can also see that getting people to wear masks correctly won't work for long. What the authorities setting this policy are doing is making this an endemic disease that will get you about once every two years. That's my best assessment looking at how it's spreading here where I live, where mask wearing was actually good for a long time. @Snowygerry Caution is slipping now. I see people in enclosed spaces pulling their mask down to sneeze into the open air! At the store cleaning their noses with their hands and then handling stuff to hand over to other people. Etc. It's only human, this has happened before between previous waves and will continue happening. But more in this interval now, with mask wearing becoming theater because people think vaccination has "solved the problem". They have been told that.

    Winter is coming. Vaccines have began being widely used about 6 months ago. Cases are already rising, as is test positivity. This will be yer another screw up, another wave. And if the pattern holds, nothing will be learned and it will be repeated again in spreading...

    To do covid prevention effectively we need slack in the essential jobs, so that people who have some kind of flu or fever or other suspicious symptom stay at home and still get paid until their heal. Fast testes don't work for that, when they show positive harm was already done. But that means spending more in paying employees - mostly poor and politically powerless employees at that - so governments refuse to do this. they're effective the representatives of the oligarchy in out countries... Improving labour conditions and protections is in fact one of the two big missing policies that were necessary to eradicate covid, and that was refused. The other was strict testing and quarantine at borders - which imo was refused also for socio-economic motives, not due to any technical difficulty: where it happened and while it happened it was allowing the "lower" laborers to get paid more.

    The fight to end the pandemic is broken because governments refuse to do stuff that would prove a "bad example" for the plebs, of how life could be better for them.

    Can you try to answer a question honestly: who spreads covid the most: an unvaccinated masked individual who is cautions, or a vaccinated maskess individual who goes to work while sick with some "flu" and sneezes around without care?

    This directing of anger at the unvaccinated is a misdirection. One to temporarily divert responsibility for the ongoing pandemic away from the really bad people: the ones who decided that we have to live (die) with covid forever. When everyone gets vaccinated they will divert anger at the maskless, or any other handy group they can paint as spreaders.

    But the reality is that there is only one way to end this and going back to what was normal life. The way to do it is known, tested and proven achievable. And it's not being allowed by our governments because providing for people to survive through this fight without reporting for work every day would upturn current socio-economic stratification. This is also not contemplated, and therefore this policy or making teh virus endemic is not questioned, by most people in an upper-middle class who are very comfortable with their now social position and might dislike being unable to travel for a while more, or unable to afford house servants (domestic help") or some other forms of cheap services they are used to and mus be provided by a poorer strata with low bargaining power.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
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  9. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Herd immunity will not happen, period. It's impossible. And that too was strongly suspected from day one as this was a coronavirus. Fauci and so many others lie. And that guy in particular has form, he lied about AIDS repeatedly back then too.
    Remember when they claimed it didn't spread through aerosols? Another lie.
    Remember the noble lie of not wearing masks?
    Remember the lie that stopping air travel would be "counter-productive"?
    So don't be surprised as this lie to is acknowledged. And don't be surprised that its being replaced with yet another lie, that vaccines will provide herd immunity. Pattern by itself should make you suspect that it is another lie. But there's objective evidence for it:
    1. Iran too is vaccinated and it didn't help avoid those mass reinfections, there is such thing as "vaccine breakthroughs". By the way, initially the was an attempt to deny that, another lie for the count. Before Iran there were now waves in the Seychelles after most of the population was vaccinated and they opened up for tourism, and in Chile (effects of winter there?). Then it was dismissed as "bad chinese vaccines". Those vaccines are now acknowledged to be roughly as effective as the "western" ones such as J&J's.
    2. if you still want to cling to the "but we have better vaccines" forlorn home, then Israel. The hasty deployment of a third dose because they were under a new wave already. 5 months, that is what you can expect. And it0's a function of the human immune system, not of the vaccine used.
    3. T cells and B cells won't be of use to stop infections, and their use in avoiding hospitalization or deaths is probably reduced, if it exists at all. In any case the most vulnerable population is already depleted in T cells. And... repeated vaccination will make things worse.
    4. The above. But few immunologists dare say that openly yet, because they will be branded "anti-vaxxers". Repeated vaccinations, every 5 or 6 months, are quite literally a death end. But reality always asserts itself. It will probably take a couple of years for that show to drop, and when it does millions more will have died of this lie that covid can be "lived with".

    Sure, we can survive it for a long some. With care and if we're among a privileged and careful subset of the population we'll probably only lose a couple years of live. But this is a murderous policy. For many it will be 10, 20 or more years of life lost, a very early death. Add tho that loving inter rolling restrictions like forever. This is murderous and idiotic: the death and morbidity that people are being sentenced to by policymakers' decisions is avoidable. Just so that the segment of the population currently on top can remain in denial about giving up some of their current social privileges. And it won't work of course: this is not a stable situation, it will keep degrading, it will just take years and a terrible toll of things to collapse.
     
  10. amadeus

    amadeus Living in my own private I-dunno

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    @innonimatu you have posted part of your reply within the quote tags. :)

    Regardless of oligarchs, the political will to do as you suggest just doesn’t seem to me to exist even among the working classes of people; without controlling for other factors, it seems paradoxical but the people most opposed to continued lockdowns and other eradication measures seem to be those most removed from what you would describe as oligarchs.

    I think in terms of a practical application, regardless of will, it is not feasible for developing countries in particular to use those measures you deem necessary, a fait accompli if you will.

    Mass vaccination is in my opinion, at this point, is the most politically feasible and practical “solution” if there can be one attained.

    Edit: since you replied again after I started this reply, I’m going to follow up on the Chile/Iran thing; I’m talking about effective vaccines, not those made in a blender out of a monkey spleen and some shredded newspapers.
     
  11. Drakle

    Drakle Emperor

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    This is a bullfeathers distinction. Outside of people who medically can't get the vaccine, it's a near perfect circle between anti vaxxer and reckless indifference to other restrictions, bordering on active maliciousness.
     
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  12. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    This is very probably a problem but hasn't been proven yet. I can tell from personal observation that this wrong technique of just sticking the needle and injecting is being used here and the official numbers on damage from the vaccine have not been worse that Denmark's. Then again I also know people who suffered through the symptoms of myocarditis and didn't complain. So there's different levels of uderreporting to contend with.

    When in doubt, be cautions. Especially as it's easy in this case: just follow the traditional procedure of aspiring to make sure no bloodstream was hit.It would be elementary caution, and easy, to do everywhere as the danish wisely decided to do.

    That saying so, that asking to improve vaccine injection technique, is attacked as being "anti-vaxxer", just shows how insane people became. I met the same problem when I pointed out that one dose of the mrna vaccines had about the same effect as two does (it's on the studies). Some more antibodies are meaningless as they decay anyway, its a month's difference in how long the vaccine's effect lasts. And of course now we're doing boosters anyway. The second dose was a booster and delaying it until the effects of the first fell was the correct thing to do. As was adjusting does (insofar as it can be adjusted, mrna is just a bad technology used due to haste in this sictuation) for different population groups, especially young people. But to say that was to be anti-vaxxer. The holy writ as decreed back in December 2020 should not be questioned.
     
  13. MrCynical

    MrCynical Deity

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    Due to the attitudes involved, the overlap between the sets of "unvaccinated", "still wearing masks" and "cautious" is miniscule, bordering on non-existent around here. Although I suppose, technically, that means very little Covid spread by this semi-mythical group of people. :)

    Now, the much larger set of unvaccinated maskless individuals on the other hand...
     
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  14. Takhisis

    Takhisis Rum and coke.

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    up yours.
    And people at the office cannot tell whether you shaved this morning or not.
     
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  15. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Thanks, corrected it now!

    Mass vaccination is insufficient. This new normal we are living in is disastrous. We can survive in it, living worse, the next generation might even grow up not knowing anything better. But this is undesirable and we don't have to let our living standards decay this way.

    I live in a rather peaceful country. Can't say the effects of the pandemic have caused much social instability here. But it seems to me that this will not be the case in several important countries round the world. So I don't even think this "living (dying) with the virus" think can work, under the logic of those who decided to go for that policy: to keep things as they were.

    What I saw here was high compliance during the lockdowns. With one big exception: the people traveling around. The original virus of course is long gone, so we did eradication, and so did many other countries - repeatedly. It's just that we also kept importing new virus: the fact that is is variants that come from outside make it obvious. This is not one pandemic seen in a local frame: it's a series of successive pandemic, wave after wave.
    It's not the "essential workers" starting each of the waves, the pandemics. It's the travelers, whom the government deliberately did not organize quarantines for as that way they would not come/go. That well-to-do tourists and students, that middle-upper class. And the extremely cheap labour brought in and ejected seasonally, as was exposed (it happened under the radar for most people) during the lockdowns when farmers complained of crops being left to rot. Again, not memebers of the local lower classes.

    The "essential workers" the inevitably catch the imported new wave of viral variant and spread it. If they stay at home they lose wages, live is expensive and economic rents extracted on them are high. Do you know how much a medic working in the public hospitals here makes a month, as base wage without overtime? Less that 1500€/month. Nurses about 1200€, "lower" assistant staff about the minimum wage, 700€. They have to pay taxes on that. Of course they have to work overtime. And of course they can't skip days when they're sick, even if they were paid (and the first three days weren't) because they'd be skipping that overtime. These are the results of the "labour reforms" done an t the behalf of the EU troika for the sake of "competitiveness". It0s impossible to live within or near the capital city (1/5 of the country's population in the area) with these wages.
    People are leaving or just quitting. But supposedly no problem because our betters can import some bangladeshis who will work overtime without complaining and like 6 in a room rotating on the two available beds. The UAE showed out leaders how they could do it... Out health system of course is collapsing (i know 2 medics who have left in the past month alone, one left the country and the profession altogether). In that I think we're no different from the UK or the US, only out wages are much lower anyway. Once the built in "economic clack" in terms of people who are not paying "revised rents" (that got "liberalized" with the EU troika also) for housing or still have a house is give, give it a few years more, this will be a failed state.
    I happen to think this is not sustainable and will blow up, even in a excessively peaceful country. But hey, I may be wrong. Perhaps we will go quietly into the dark.

    I also think that people wrongly dismiss the ability of poorer countries, if properly supported, to eradicate diseases. It's doable. Which, if and when we get smart people dealing with this in the wealthy countries, will be in everyone's interest to help with. Even with delta, or the even more contagious (did they have some spare greek letters still to use?) mutation that I'm already hearing about.
     
  16. The_J

    The_J Say No 2 Net Validations Super Moderator Supporter

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    Probably because it's not possible.
    Vaccines are also the only way to achieve eradication (if even possible).

    This is a fallacy, comparing 2 bad examples. You should get vaccinated and wear a mask, this is the only right answer.

    Then eradication is not possible.
    All eradications so far (2) were due to the fact that there was immunity in the population, due to vaccines.

    Iran currently has less than half of its population vaccinated.

    Ah,... so... we'll do this without the immune system at all? That's gotta be interesting.
     
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  17. Narz

    Narz keeping it real

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    I have a lot of compassion for people who have to wear them all day at their work, seems pretty annoying.
     
  18. innonimatu

    innonimatu Deity

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    Which part of the "you can't get enduring immunity to this" are you sill in denial about? To eradicate you must do it without having to rely on the immune system because there is always a fraction of the population who won't get immunity, and a fraction that despite having antibodies gets infected and spreads. The key things is doing it comprehensively, fast and in a way that people can understand and get on board with.

    This could have been done and over with long, long go.

    You know what is ironic? I agree with @Narz that mask mandates, or any other mandates, can't be done forever. And I suspect that he probably will agree with me (?) that restrictions such as mask wearing would make sense as a part of a policy that was limited in time and with a well defined end goal to end the pandemic once and for all. Eradicate in three months. Not that it would take so long, based on numerous experiments. People would accept restrictions so long as the goal is well defined and works. They won't accept restrictions in daily life forever, and they also won't accept them whet it becomes obvious they're part of a theater to cover up for government incompetence. The things I could say about pretending to test at airports and about "vaccine passes"... but enough rants for today.

    On the "unable to keep it out" think. Did the government of Australia run some referendum on wether the population wanted to "open up the country" or wanted to do as China, strictly control the border so long as most of the world is ran by fools?
    No they didn't. Because they knew what the result would be. So they just make sure they "failed" an containing at the border (no dedicated quarantine facilities built, no permanent staff assigned and following procedures with protections), and then failed (Gladys...) at stamping out that failure.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
  19. Drakle

    Drakle Emperor

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    Candace Owens says we should invade Australia. “Australia currently, make no mistake, is a tyrannical police state. It’s citizens are quite literally being imprisoned against their will. So when do we deploy?”

    ....

    Not sure how to convey my reaction.

    Can conservative loons just google? Its not like Australia is North Korea, there are plenty of Australians online. I literally just had a discussion on a different forum, with a crazy anti-vaxxer talking about Australians not being able to leave their house, and having to tell him that Australians are on the internet, and we are outside all the time.

    Also, she blames Federal Overreach because that's a standard conservative trigger, but it's literally all the States.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
  20. amadeus

    amadeus Living in my own private I-dunno

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    From a personal perspective it does not bother me in the slightest; my company mandated them over a year ago, and after an initial couple of weeks of mild discomfort from having it tug a little on my ear, it just became part of the routine.
     
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