Corporations and an Economic Victory

[Myomoto]

There has been scattered discussion on how to implement corporations and a potential Economic Victory in the various threads dedicated to the new game modes in NFP, but I wanted to make a dedicated discussion for the concept (either for a hypothetical mode in VI or in potential Civ VII).

For my ideal scenario Economic Victory would be tied to a global marketplace, where all the strategic and luxury resources as well as manufactured goods of corporations are traded. I would like to see luxuries be consumed resources with stockpiles like the strategics are now - cities would consume an amount per turn to receive amenities, so a steady supply is needed to maintain happiness and productivity.

Corporations would initially unlock in the Renaissance and would in the beginning be focused on getting a trade monopoly on a resource (think East India companies). They would be structured with a tiered level of bonuses similar to religions, with the first 1 or 2 tiers focusing on strong bonuses for the more of a few specific luxury resources you have, and like religions it is first come first served for picking a bonus (i.e. encourage monopoly/mercantilism).

At this point the global marketplace would also unlock, basically every civ can mark quantities of strategic/luxury resources as 'excess' and they would go up on a shared market where others can buy them at a price that would fluctuate with availability vs. demand (watch out for market crashes and inflation!). Potentially the direct trade between Civs using the diplomacy menu would need to be modified (maybe you need a trade route connection to do direct trades, but market place trade can be handled without it).

Later then in the Industrial era, manufactured goods would unlock with factories. These would consume a few different luxury (maybe even bonus/strategic) resources and produce a manufactured goods luxury (there is already several in the game unlocked via great merchants - toys, jeans, cosmetics, etc). Manufactured goods would be more potent in terms of amenities, and also offer a means to diversify your luxuries by transforming base resources into new ones.

Corporations would unlock their 3rd and 4th tier of bonuses during the Industrial and the Modern era, here with a focus on manufactured goods (more output with fewer resources, more amenities, unique goods, etc). These can then likewise go on the market.

Stocks in other civs' corporations would now also become available at this point, letting each civ get a small share of each other's profits from the marketplace (proportional to how many stocks you own). Stock prices would increase in value the more the players buy of a corporations shares, and would drop in price as players sell them.

Some kind of random events would likely need to occur to make certain manufactured goods more or less valuable at different times (á la We Love The King Day of Civ V), simulating the consumer demand changing. As demand goes up, the profits of those corps go up, making everyone wanting to invest in their stocks, driving up their stock prices (possibly requiring you to drop stocks in the less profitable corps).

The ultimate goal now would then be to get the majority holding in each civs corp (potentially via some opportunistic wars/espionage/or outright market manipulation to crash stock prices).

 

[Teddy Lobo]

Meus parabéns, Sr, Myomoto.
Seria uma forma muito divertida e interessante de jogar ...
Sinceramente, espero que algo assim seja introduzido no jogo.
Faria muita gente feliz, eu seria uma dessas tantas pessoas.

Moderator Action: CivFanatics is an English language forum. Please provide an English translation. Thanks. leif

 

[Galvatron]

One point I'd mention is that unlike strategic resources I don't think that the trade goods should have stockpiles. Rather I think it should be an on/off thing where like in real life trade disputes you get embargoed ands suddenly everyone gets upset because no tea or whatever. So essentially for diplomacy it's a game of chicken and negotiating alternate agreements.

One thing I was thinking about is if in the latter game to simulate real life industrial changes luxuries begin to provide a stacking effect, simulating mercantalism, so amassing tonnes of luxuries becomes the name of the game like it was in that time period. Possibly they stop providing amenities, and to get amenities you need manufactured goods. This might happen around the modern period when people want cars, power, and vacations.

Also I think similar to religion corporations should have uses beyond economic victory, including economic benefits ands benefits for other victory types.

 

[Myomoto]

One point I'd mention is that unlike strategic resources I don't think that the trade goods should have stockpiles. Rather I think it should be an on/off thing where like in real life trade disputes you get embargoed ands suddenly everyone gets upset because no tea or whatever. So essentially for diplomacy it's a game of chicken and negotiating alternate agreements.

One thing I was thinking about is if in the latter game to simulate real life industrial changes luxuries begin to provide a stacking effect, simulating mercantalism, so amassing tonnes of luxuries becomes the name of the game like it was in that time period. Possibly they stop providing amenities, and to get amenities you need manufactured goods. This might happen around the modern period when people want cars, power, and vacations.

Also I think similar to religion corporations should have uses beyond economic victory, including economic benefits ands benefits for other victory types.

The idea with the stockpiles is more or less just to try and get some kind of major benefit from having multiple tile improvements that generates a luxury resource. Stacking of the bonus from multiple copies could be another way to make a benefit of course.

I just generally want the game to kind of devolve into the a petty mercantilism state where everyone is trying to snatch up every single source of a luxury get the exclusive ability to trade it - and for the resources to carry enough value for this to be rewarding. Right now 3 plantations of cotton can supply every need of 3 major Civs. In a stockpile/consumption system, larger populations would need multiple resources per turn to get their amenities, in other words, maybe 2-3 plantations are only enough to sustain a few major cities in total. This makes the individual resource tiles on the map more important.

Then hopefully colonies would be worth settling/capturing from other Civs to enforce this kind of resource/trade monopoly. I think definitely some kind of restrictions on trade via the diplomatic screen requiring a trade route between two Civs could also help enforce these kinds of markets. Suddenly the one civ that has trade routes to the new continent is the only one who can import the new luxury resources, and sell them off at a high price to their local Civs.

 

[Teddy Lobo]

Meus parabéns, Sr, Myomoto.
Seria uma forma muito divertida e interessante de jogar ...
Espero sinceramente que algo assim seja necessário no jogo.
Faria muita gente feliz, eu seria uma dessas tantas pessoas.

 

[Galvatron]

I just generally want the game to kind of devolve into the a petty mercantilism state where everyone is trying to snatch up every single source of a luxury get the exclusive ability to trade it - and for the resources to carry enough value for this to be rewarding. Right now 3 plantations of cotton can supply every need of 3 major Civs. In a stockpile/consumption system, larger populations would need multiple resources per turn to get their amenities, in other words, maybe 2-3 plantations are only enough to sustain a few major cities in total. This makes the individual resource tiles on the map more important.

While that's valid in my opinion I think it's more important because trading 3 luxuries away every five turns I'd so god damned boring.

But also that's the mid game, not the end game. Mercantilism fell out of style after capitalism emerged. Eventually it became clear that trading with richer people became more better for economies, which ties into a victory condition well, because you benefit from having strong trade partners, so weakening them whole maintaining a strong market is inherently challenging.

 

[Myomoto]

While that's valid in my opinion I think it's more important because trading 3 luxuries away every five turns I'd so god damned boring.

But also that's the mid game, not the end game. Mercantilism fell out of style after capitalism emerged. Eventually it became clear that trading with richer people became more better for economies, which ties into a victory condition well, because you benefit from having strong trade partners, so weakening them whole maintaining a strong market is inherently challenging.

The idea with the market was to kind of automate all the trading. Each resource has an incoming amount per turn, you know what your consumption is, so you can set up a 'ticket' to sell off x number of resources per turn (your excess, or slightly less if you wish to accrue a stockpile).

Basically everything goes into a global 'bank', and the price to sell/buy is determined by the bank stockpile (i.e. high demand items are more valuable). And yes, the idea was also to have a shift from mercantilism to capitalism with the stock system, as you could start profiting from other Civs corporations.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Just to help out:
@terry Lobo:
My congratulations, Mr, Myomoto.
It would be a very fun and interesting way to play ...
I sincerely hope that something like this is needed in the game.
It would make a lot of people happy, I would be one of those many people

machine translation from Portuguese

 

[oSiyeza]

Just to help out:
@terry Lobo:
My congratulations, Mr, Myomoto.
It would be a very fun and interesting way to play ...
I sincerely hope that something like this is needed in the game.
It would make a lot of people happy, I would be one of those many people

machine translation from Portuguese

Good translation anyway, machine translation is improving astonishingly fast.

As a person from Galicia (Spanish region with a mother language called Galician which separated from Portuguese a couple of hundred years ago when Spain divided the Galician-Portuguese kingdom in two, and still shares 90% of the grammar with Portuguese), I approve.

Random Historical useless point, brought by you from: the more you know…

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

It may not be official, but I think a basic principle of the Forum should be to make it possible for the maximum number of people to participate in reasonable discussions of Civ and related subjects, so when I can help that, I'll do my best.

And yes, machine translation is remarkably improved since a computer famously translated "Out of sight, out of mind" as "Invisible idiot"!

 

[ZeoLite357]

I really like this idea, seems so simple yet adds a powerful dimension to the game, a few tweaks and add-ons I thought of:

1. In adjusting the current 'trading situation' between player and AI, maybe restricting it to civs with an Economic Alliance as well as civs you have a trade route with.
2. Trade routes could be made 2-way (i.e requires consent from receiver, maybe a re-work of the trader unit)
3. Naval units in the Renaissance Era (such as Caravel) could be assigned to 'transport goods' between cities across an ocean, allowing for faster import of bonus/luxury goods from a colonial city (increased Gold generation etc)
4. Following from (3), the ability to pillage these goods during naval wars
5. Designating a resource as a 'Cultural Heritage' (e.g Tea for China), a way of integrating the Economic and Cultural Victory types, and something where your citizens will be happier if you have lots of the designated resource, and boosts Tourism for that resource when other civs buy it
6. Requirements for Corporation bonuses needing a Bank and/or Stock Exchange OR replacing Bank/Stock Exchange with Corporation buildings specific to your 'aim' resource or focus. These buildings could give you a choice like the options present in Government District.
7. Linking in strategic resources so when someone declares war you can buy oil/coal and see the prices rocket
8. Ways to use the Corporation/Diplomatic Quarter to increase demand for resource(s) you have using Diplomatic Favor
9. CS also benefit if they have a resource in high demand/high value (more mil units, builders)
10. Ability to bribe CS to monopolise its resource for X turns, or to ban the resource
11. Reynar Governor ability to link with Corporation somehow
12. Some form of immigration to cities starting in Modern era for cities with high Gold output and amenities (even from other civs)

 

[Atlas Shrug]

A much simpler version would be (after the mercantilism of the luxury grab), that in the modern era you'd want media corporates (culture bonuses), manufacturing corporates (science and industrial bonuses), banking corporates (gold) springing up based on a great persons type / chance arrangement as long as compatible with your government type. You can then negotiate with other civs for open borders for each type (with bonuses for alliances or city states).

If I am a Civ that owns the company, I get more trade routes, lots of gold, diplomatic points, tourism, some additional science, culture and perhaps exert loyalty per turn from this.

If I am the receiving Civ I get science or culture generated in my country, I can buy more sophisticated weapons or armies or stockpiles than I have discovered myself, but I also get religious and tourism pressure etc.

The companies can leave if there is war nearby or other disasters etc or one of the two civs changes ideology. Perhaps the companies own the science, the great works or great films, own the gold in your reserves or even some of the tiles in your city (such as the coal mine). It would be hilarious if they owned the rock band and if you can lure the company to your civ the rock band generating tourism for a rival civ starts generating tourism for you instead.

 

[civfan_999]

I would like to see luxuries be consumed resources with stockpiles like the strategic are now - cities would consume an amount per turn to receive amenities, so a steady supply is needed to maintain happiness and productivity.

That is a very cool idea. I loved how they changed the strategic resources from being total stock to earned per turn. It changes the mechanics of building an army in a great way! It would be cool to also implement this with luxury resources and amenities.

 

[TheFinalChiTown]

I would love an economic victory. And a global marketplace so I can stop spending time checking prices with each individual leader. Great idea.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

That is a very cool idea. I loved how they changed the strategic resources from being total stock to earned per turn. It changes the mechanics of building an army in a great way! It would be cool to also implement this with luxury resources and amenities.

Another point that Civ VI misses almost completely is that 'amenities' or luxuries since the Industrial Revolution are almost all Manufactured Goods, not 'natural'. And a great deal of Industrial Production goes into providing the modern amenities: consider the Industrial Supply Chains required to provide personal electronics, home appliances, automobiles, ready-made clothing, footgear, luxury foods and liquors, etc. IRL from the Industrial Era on the amenities should require an increasing dedication of Production resources and facilities, not scattered deposits of natural resources.
This change would also provide a basis for the massive economic boost to the first Civs to get to mass production factory goods: Britain basically built her Empire on cheap factory made cloth and clothing exported to the rest of the world, followed by cheap factory-made goods of all kinds before the rest of Europe and America 'caught up' and produced their own. That process has been repeated in the 20th and early 21st century in the rest of the non-European world as they 'industrialized' and took over producing the 'luxury/amenity' goods they had been buying from Europe or the USA. That whole dynamic is utterly missing from the game: instead we are still expecting our digital populations to be impressed by raw cotton and honey in the Modern and Information Eras, when what really impresses (and rakes in the Gold in trade) are iPhones, Mercedes automobiles, single-malt Scotch and their equivalents!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

A much simpler version would be (after the mercantilism of the luxury grab), that in the modern era you'd want media corporates (culture bonuses), manufacturing corporates (science and industrial bonuses), banking corporates (gold) springing up based on a great persons type / chance arrangement as long as compatible with your government type.

Yeah I would love for corporations to be divided up in a similar manner. Not all corporations are about producing manufactured goods as mentioned. A media corporation (I'm thinking something similar to Disney) could also have bonuses towards amenities and tie into the EC/Water Park district too.

 

[Galvatron]

Yeah I would love for corporations to be divided up in a similar manner. Not all corporations are about producing manufactured goods as mentioned. A media corporation (I'm thinking something similar to Disney) could also have bonuses towards amenities and tie into the EC/Water Park district too.

Media corporations could manufacture consent too.