Corporations

[vorlon_mi]

I've read the "Power of Sushi", and scanned through some other articles in the War Academy. I still haven't found a satisfactory strategy article about corporations in general.

Yes, I know, that Rule#1 in Civ is "it's situational." Having said that ....

1. Do many players try to found a corporation? Do you try to found more than one?

2. If you found one, how aggressively do you spread it? The article I found on the costs of founding and opening branches seemed to indicate that costs > benefits for many cities, and that you do *NOT* spread corps like religions.

3. Mercantilism seems to eliminate the effects of domestic (and AI-founded) corps. Is it worthwhile to run merc just to keep AI corp executives out? Does it even make sense to talk about "defense" against AI corporations?

4. Assuming I want to found a corp, like Sid's Sushi. Are there preparations I should make to my cities and economy? Since each requires a great person, it seems like having a GP farm that can make the right kind is pretty much essential.

Bottom Line: I think I have a good understanding of religions, and how that game mechanic affects my planning, strategy and tactics. I want to get there with corps, too.

 

[OneLeggedRhino]

3. Mercantilism seems to eliminate the effects of domestic (and AI-founded) corps. Is it worthwhile to run merc just to keep AI corp executives out? Does it even make sense to talk about "defense" against AI corporations?

If you don't want corps, go State Property. Most players either go Corps / Free Market or State Property. No one really goes Mercantilism lategame except for very special circumstances.

4. Assuming I want to found a corp, like Sid's Sushi. Are there preparations I should make to my cities and economy? Since each requires a great person, it seems like having a GP farm that can make the right kind is pretty much essential.

If you know from the beginning that you'll want a particular corp, it would affect city placement and conquest. Corps give a bonus for EACH instance of a resource, so if you have 4 fish, that's 4x as much food / culture as 1 fish (for Sid's). This is the only thing in the game where you benefit by getting a ton of the same resource, so you might not grab a 7th fish otherwise.

Also, for cities you place lategame, knowing you'll get a food infusion opens up more options. Basically, if your economy can handle it, then grabbing a city with zero workable squares becomes worth it, since the benefits from the corp still apply. This may slightly affect your city placement midgame, where you move a city 1 square to leave a spot for a tundra city later, but only if both spots are about equal in the short term.

You don't need a GP farm specialized to that type of GP. Just constantly run that type of specialist, and eventually you'll get one, mixed in with all the Great Scientists. Save him for the corp.

 

[simishag]

I build corporations fairly often in my games. I won't rehash the State Property vs Free Market debate again here, other than to say that in some cases, corporations (esp Mining) can be absolute game breakers. You can search the forums for more on this. Anyway...

1. If I'm going for corps, I'm going for Mining and Sushi. The other 5 generally come too late in the tech tree to have a major impact on the game. Cereal Mills is sometimes worth building if you can't get Sushi, and Civ Jewelers can be useful for a final push in a culture win. CreateCon is okay if you miss Mining. I almost never build Aluminum or Ethanol: if you don't have those resources by that point in the game, you've probably already lost.

2. I tend to spam my corps aggressively. I spread Mining just about everywhere because the extra hammers will repay the investment pretty quickly. Sushi goes first to the GP farm, and then large production cities since those tend to have less food available. Both corps are great for getting those 1 tile island cities up and running. I generally do NOT spread corps to the AI as the extra gold isn't worth sharing the strategic advantage of the corp, but in some cases it's a worthwhile strategy to bankrupt the AI by spamming your corp in his cities.

3. Merc prevents the AI from spreading its corps to you. You can still use your own corps. SP stops ALL corps. Sometimes the AI will get a little aggressive about spreading its corps but I usually have enough gold to buy them out. You don't necessarily need to defend like you would with religion, and it can be useful to keep 1 city with his corp so that you can build your own franchises if you want.

4. You need to build Wall Street and you need to build the corp HQ there, so obviously you need your banks up and running. You need courthouses in any city that will get a corp branch. Sushi will blow up your population so you may need health/happy buildings. For GP, if I get a Great Engineer early, I may save him for the whole game so I can build Mining. The other corps all use more common GP so I don't really worry about that until later.

I will note also that it may be a worthwhile strategy to build a corp HQ simply to deny it to the AI. You don't want to face a huge warmonger who has Mining.

 

[Wulf38]

1. For military victories, if I happen to get a random GE I'll grab Mining. SP will likely pay off more quickly for military than other corperations.

For space race, my preferred strategy is to found a food corp and feed representation specialists. I'll also grab mining if I can get it, but the food corp is higher priority.

2. To all my own cities. Any city can become good with a good corp, so it's worth it. Only my own cities though, I don't think foreign spread is worth bothering with.

3. I never run Merc. If an AI is being obnoxious and displacing your corps, just close borders with him. The extra trade route per city from FM is very lucrative, especially when using a food corp to grow your cities large. Environmentalism isn't bad either, extra health is always welcome, and for hilly maps it makes windmills pretty nice. The benefits of one of those two will almost always outweigh the extra specialist per city from Merc.

4. Sushi and Cereal are nice because they only require a GM, which is really easy to get via Caste. Others have already covered the preparations you need to make. I'd also recommend trying for Broadway and Rock'n'Roll, since they're on the path to space anyway, and they give you monopoly resources with which to trade for more corp resources.

 

[WelshGandalf]

If you have the time/patience, there a good recent 8-page thread on corps/free market vs. state property here which is an excellent read.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=376502

 

[s.bernbaum]

I've used Sushi to provide food for hammer rich, food poor tundra locations, and to top up the food in cities that have more hammers or commerce than they have citizens to work. Plus of course to generate food for extra specialists. Mining does wonders to make a mediocre production city into a top one or to make a one tile island with lots of seafood a real nice bonus city. I've also used Sushi to add culture in order to flip a nearby friendly neighbor's border city, when I did not want to war with that civ.

 

[coanda]

1. See WelshGandalf's link to the FM vs. SP discussion. People going Free Market almost always try to found corps. Generally people found at least two corps - one of Sid's Sushi or Cereal Mills for food, and one of Mining Inc. or Creative Constructions for hammers. Some people will also found a few corps for purely foreign spread (as a tactic to earn some money and bankrupt opponents), but that strategy usually isn't worthwhile.

2. If founded in a Wall Street city, you can pretty much spread your corps to all cities which have courthouses. Mining Inc. in particular is simply worth spreading everywhere if you can. Food corps. will greatly benefit you in getting a new city up and running, in working tiles in cities that are food-poor, and in boosting the effectiveness of your GP farm(s); cities which are already working all their tiles but no specialists often don't get much of a benefit from them so spreading there is low-priority. Do NOT spread your domestic corps to foreign cities - it costs a lot, and then you won't be able to trade for the resources you need!

3. I suppose theoretically you might use Mercantilism to defend against AI corp. spread, but I've never seen a situation calling for it. If you have your own corps., you should use them to out-compete any AI corps spread to your cities that you don't want (and if the AI keeps it up, just close borders). If you don't have your own corps., State Property will be a better choice than Mercantilism.

4. There are little optimizations which others have already covered better than I could, but there are really only two things I'd advise keeping in mind. First, preparation - you want the Wall Street city and appropriate GP before you get the necessary tech. Second, strategy - corporations tend to be weaker than State Property in the short run. So only think about corps. if you expect the game to run quite a bit longer, and if you're thinking about corps. then your play should be directed towards a late-game victory.

 

[elohssa]

I've read the "Power of Sushi", and scanned through some other articles in the War Academy. I still haven't found a satisfactory strategy article about corporations in general.

Yes, I know, that Rule#1 in Civ is "it's situational." Having said that ....

1. Do many players try to found a corporation? Do you try to found more than one?

2. If you found one, how aggressively do you spread it? The article I found on the costs of founding and opening branches seemed to indicate that costs > benefits for many cities, and that you do *NOT* spread corps like religions.

3. Mercantilism seems to eliminate the effects of domestic (and AI-founded) corps. Is it worthwhile to run merc just to keep AI corp executives out? Does it even make sense to talk about "defense" against AI corporations?

4. Assuming I want to found a corp, like Sid's Sushi. Are there preparations I should make to my cities and economy? Since each requires a great person, it seems like having a GP farm that can make the right kind is pretty much essential.

Bottom Line: I think I have a good understanding of religions, and how that game mechanic affects my planning, strategy and tactics. I want to get there with corps, too.

1. Do not know about others but I always found corps. Unless you are in a position to win the game early and can just go StateP. The AI production bonuses on higher levels mean that coprs like mining inc are stupendously powerful.

2. I spread it to every single one of my cities (with mining inc building a quick courthouse/rathaus isn't a problem). Sometimes spreading it to foreign cities is worth it for the 12 gold per turn.

3. I have never had serious problems with foreign AI spreading corps. Occasionally the odd city might be affected, but 250(I think) hammers for a new executive will fix that problem. Free market is best.

4. Having a GP farm isn't essential if you have the actual great people. Sometimes merchants come very early (BC years). Engineers are harder to get but obtainable. Philosophical trait can help. Most important preparation is to get the gold multipliers in a good commerce city (preferably with shrine). That means spamming banks for wall street. Generally speaking 90% of the revenue in the headquarters city will come from corps so don't be too upset if you don't have lots of towns near that city and don't have a shrine. These are a bonus.

If you want to experience the true power of corporations than play with holy-rome (Rathaus is -75% maintenance).

 

[coanda]

If you want to experience the true power of corporations than play with holy-rome (Rathaus is -75% maintenance).

HRE gets the best corps, but Ethiopia, America, England, and Mali also get unusually strong corps (in that order).

 

[ecuwins]

Don't forget about Shaka with his barracks.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Beware the U.N.........

 

[simishag]

Beware the U.N.........

I'm assuming you mean the UN vote for Enviro. This is mainly a cost issue and it seems like it's easier/cheaper to just defy the vote and raise the culture slider if necessary for happiness. The cost calculation has to include both the corp maint difference (basically 75% vs 125% of baseline corp cost) AND the loss of the FM trade routes. By this time in the game, I've generally got enough resources and theatres to stick with FM.

Does defying the UN add a diplo penalty for the AI or just the happiness penalty?

 

[GGracchus]

Build wall street in your HQ city, build courthouses everywhere, spread to all possible cities, and run FM. That's my advice.

@simishag: There is no diplo penalty for defying UN.

 

[AbsoluteZero]

I don't like corporations because:

1. I can't run state property, a damn nice civic which makes things soooo much more simple.

2. I have to race to certain non-military techs to found corps first.

3. I have to spread it.

4. It takes a lot of micro.

5. You need certain resources, but if you went the corp route ( peaceful techs ) you probably don't have that much land so corps don't do you much good anyway.


You could make an argument for corps if you are isolated and can grab a good amount of key resources. Otherwise usually have to take someone out first to get in a winning position, which means forgoing the necessary techs to found a corporation.

 

[simishag]

Corps seem to be a matter of taste as much as anything. The idea is cool but I think strategies are hampered by 3 things:

1) They all come very late in the tech tree. Many players win games long before corps can have any realistic impact.
2) The combination of Sushi/Mining dominates the other 5, because they are the first 2 available and both are on techs that are fairly important anyway.
3) They require a tech, a GP, and additional hammers (and units!) to spread, which is a hassle this late in the game. Maybe the HQ should be a wonder instead? Maybe the franchises should just be regular buildings?

I do want to respond to a couple of your points:

I don't like corporations because:
2. I have to race to certain non-military techs to found corps first.

It may be a detour in the tech tree, but in my experience, this is almost never a race if you already have the necessary GP when you get the tech. The AI seems to take waaaay longer to build corps after it has the necessary tech. I would guess because it's not smart enough to save the GP and plan ahead, so it has to get the tech and then try to get the GP. I play at Emperor so maybe the AI is faster to build corps at higher levels.

You could make an argument for corps if you are isolated and can grab a good amount of key resources. Otherwise usually have to take someone out first to get in a winning position, which means forgoing the necessary techs to found a corporation.

Not sure I agree with this. You can take out someone early and still have plenty of time to make your way thru the tech tree.

 

[Skallagrimson]

I don't like corporations because:

1. I can't run state property, a damn nice civic which makes things soooo much more simple.

2. I have to race to certain non-military techs to found corps first.

3. I have to spread it.

4. It takes a lot of micro.

5. You need certain resources, but if you went the corp route ( peaceful techs ) you probably don't have that much land so corps don't do you much good anyway.


You could make an argument for corps if you are isolated and can grab a good amount of key resources. Otherwise usually have to take someone out first to get in a winning position, which means forgoing the necessary techs to found a corporation.

Railroad is military, BUT... you need to burn a lot of GPPs on an Engineer. And if you go corps on just one corp it tends to be less worth it, so each corp multiplies the GPPs you have to burn on the GPs to found them. And you can get pollution in a lot of ways from early game wonders: prophet from Oracle and scientist from GL at the very least, and possibly artists from things like Taj Mahal. That alone is a good argument to actually avoid building wonders in the GP farm. Just food and only food to generate GPPs, to allow more control.

 

[vorlon_mi]

I don't like corporations because:

5. You need certain resources, but if you went the corp route ( peaceful techs ) you probably don't have that much land so corps don't do you much good anyway.

You could make an argument for corps if you are isolated and can grab a good amount of key resources. Otherwise usually have to take someone out first to get in a winning position, which means forgoing the necessary techs to found a corporation.

AZ, I don't quite get this. In my games, whether I'm peaceful or whether I fought a Renaissance era war, I am beelining for Liberalism to get the free tech. Once I've won the Liberalism race, I've got a mixture of techs to choose from to get ready for the industrial era. Yes, the tech path through Gunpowder to Rifling is distinct from the path to Corporations. But why do you think that military is incompatible with corps?

Not a rush-type war ... I'm not talking about taking out an opponent before I have 3 cities built. I usually mount a campaign sometime before 1000 AD to grab a bunch of my neighbor's land and resources. Now, looking much later -- say, 1700 AD -- one could contemplate another war of acquisition, esp. to get coal or a holy city. Are you saying that the choosing to research towards corps first, and rifling second, will keep you from fighting/winning that war?

 

[ReyLuis]

HRE gets the best corps, but Ethiopia, America, England, and Mali also get unusually strong corps (in that order).

Just out of interest, why Ethopia and America? I can understand the other 2 because of their UBs. Am I missing something here?

Cheers

 

[krikav]

Just out of interest, why Ethopia and America? I can understand the other 2 because of their UBs. Am I missing something here?

Cheers

Americas unique building, the mall. It has a +20% gold bonus.

I have no idea about ethiopia.

 

[Ataxerxes]

I'm assuming you mean the UN vote for Enviro. This is mainly a cost issue and it seems like it's easier/cheaper to just defy the vote and raise the culture slider if necessary for happiness. The cost calculation has to include both the corp maint difference (basically 75% vs 125% of baseline corp cost) AND the loss of the FM trade routes. By this time in the game, I've generally got enough resources and theatres to stick with FM.

Does defying the UN add a diplo penalty for the AI or just the happiness penalty?

No, there isn't a diplo penalty. It's just the happiness penalty. The problem is the happiness penalty will wind up being permanent because the UN will keep on and on with the Env. election. I think sometimes they end up stacking so you have -10 happiness in every city. I'd rather avoid having to use 30% cultural slider to keep happiness up, especially with the huge cities you get from Sid's Sushi. I usually try to keep State Property and I get hit with Environmentalism problem as well. Skallagrimson and I are two who hate the UN more than the AP because of this. I normally won't research Mass Media and won't even try for the Useless Nations unless I'm close to domination.

I believe Ethiopia is good for Corps due to the Organized Trait. I think Org both helps corporate maintenace and reduces the maintenance benefit from State Property because costs are already reduced. In this case Org leaders, Shaka and Burger King benefit more from corps.