Corruption Corruption! Tell me why it works this way?

Discussion in 'Civ3 - General Discussions' started by Drakken, Mar 5, 2002.

  1. BillChin

    BillChin Prince

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    This thread was started by someone who quit the March Game of the Month in disgust due to corruption on a small map with a lot of land on separate continents. Again, I would give more weight to your arguments and those of Zachariel if you participated in common games such as the GOTM.

    Many strategies and comments only apply to certain map sizes, or starting conditions. By having a common experience with 50+ other players, there is common ground for discussion. People that play games in isolation are much more likely to have "ivory tower" views of the world, as they often tailor the starting conditions to match their play style. Because of this, I give their comments a lot less weight when discussing game balance issues such as corruption.

    I invite everyone reading this to play the Game of the Month. There is still plenty of time to download and play the March game: Monarch difficulty, Americans, small map, version 1.17f. I rarely play for or get a high score, but it gives me a common game experience to learn, and to think about strategies and game balance issues.
     
  2. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

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    I understand your argument, but, in response I will say that many people who have real problems with corruption have not tried the various strategies to counter it. Many times, the totally corrupt cities people cite as examples have only been recently conquered or founded, and/or little has been done to try to correct the problem. Should these people heed the phrase, "Look at the solution, not the problem", there would be far fewer complaints. I have a hard time giving credence to the arguments of someone who has quit a game because they were not able to easily conquer every challenge it presented, and this is where many of the complainst about corruption come from. CIV3 was not designed to be a military strategy game, and in fact, the military tactics needed to defeat the AI in combat are almost rudimentary. I posit that many of the players who complain so bitterly about corruption destroying the fun of CIV3 simply want an easy military strategy game where they can see their "enemies driven before them". Unfortunately, the lamentations are not of the conquered women, but are those of their own civ, crying because corruption is so bad they cannot get a loaf of bread without pleasuring their local officials.:p

    Anyway, I have found ways to counter corruption in my own games, and I enjoy managing my empires. The GOTM is an inherently flawed competition because it uses a flawed scoring system. Were most players not trying to conquer the world (because that is how you get the highest score), they would not have as much corruption.
     
  3. Ironikinit

    Ironikinit Prince

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    It seems to me that there are two different corruption gripes going on here. One is saying that they're getting corruption that they didn't expect: new players. The other gripe is that they are running into problems when they have all but won the game: exploitative players (I hope the term doesn't offend).

    For new players, we can offer tips, but there's not much we can do for those having trouble squeezing every last point out of the game. I fail to see why it would make eyrei and Zach's opinions more valid if they played the GOTM. AFAIK, they play the game by the standard rules, as I do, and that's common experience.

    I've had quite sizable civs with relatively low corruption. 15% isn't unusual... but then I don't run away with the game, either. If I was 500 points up on the AI in the mid-game, I wouldn't run up the score, I'd start a new one. Typically in the mid-game I'm 3rd or lower in the ranking, depending on map size.

    I guess my main point is that exploitative players are going to run into extreme amounts of corruption, and that's that. There's no getting around it unless they modify.
     
  4. BillChin

    BillChin Prince

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    I agree that the scoring system rewards conquest. However, I believe that all players can benefit from playing a common game with common starting conditions. Living in an "ivory tower" makes your comments and your experiences less relevant.

    I still find the GOTM to be a fun diversion even though I am not an efficient enough player to go for a top score. I play for fun and learning. I find that the common experience adds a lot to my game. I believe it can do so for anyone who participates, whether they try for a high score or just play for fun. So many strategies depend on starting conditions, that having a common base gives me a better sense of the overall game.

    I see no downside to participating in the GOTM. Most play for fun and learning. A few compete for the top scores, but my estimate is that 80% of competitors do not worry about score. I hope to see your name and many more new names in the next table of results. Odds are that you will learn more about the game and have more to share with everyone.
     
  5. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

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    Other than this part, I actually agree with you. Taken out of context, this is probably a true statement. However, it does not apply to myself or Zachriel. As Ironikinit said :
    Regardless of my starting position, corruption is never a problem worth complaining about. I use the same rules as those playing the GOTM, so I am hardly looking down from an Ivory tower.
     
  6. Zachriel

    Zachriel Kaiser

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    Hey! I like my ivory tower.

    ;)
     
  7. BillChin

    BillChin Prince

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    I am not a fan of complaining, it is rarely useful. However, in your poll over 60% said they did not like the current corruption rules. You did not include corruption in the poll title or an option in your poll such as: corruption is a good idea, but needs tweaking. With that extra option, I believe support for the current rules would be at 20% or less. That's a lot of people that may or may not complain, but they do not like the current rules and wish they were tweaked. Some want major changes, some like myself want minor changes.

    Again, each Civ III game can be completely different depending on map size, difficulty level and starting position. A strategy or play style that works well under a certain size map, certain difficulty level may not be viable at all on a different map. Failing to see this, reinforces the effect of that ivory tower.

    Playing in isolation, I often choose similar settings for each game start. In my case it is random map type, standard size map, random civ, random barbs, Emperor difficulty. By playing the GOTM, I play on settings that I might never choose for myself and learn more about the game in the process. A common start makes discussion much more useful. As for relevance, I care a lot more if a player has 7% corruption and wins a game, under the same starting conditions where my corruption is around 60%. Type of victory or score is not important. Common starting conditions such as map size, difficulty level, terrain at the start, are very important.

    Again, this thread was started by someone playing GOTM. Comments about other games with other starting conditions have less weight, especially in this thread. Yes, it is the same rules, but starting conditions make a huge difference in what works and what doesn't work. That is one point I learned very early and something that some players still do not seem to understand when asking or answering questions.

    Again, there is no downside to participating in the GOTM. Most players have no realistic chance at a top score. I include myself in that group. Most players play the game for fun. Again, I invite you and everyone else reading this to participate. Virtually everyone who participates, whether they are a top scorer or a novice who loses in the first age seems to learn something from each game. Any player interested in learning more about the game can benefit.

    This month's game is Monarch level, which is your preference, so it is a perfect time to take the plunge. It is Americans on a small map, so time to play is not a big factor. I hope to see your name and many more new names in the results table for the March GOTM. You can win this argument handily by playing the March GOTM with 7% corruption ;) It is all good.

    http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3gotm/civ3gotm05.shtml
     
  8. roalan

    roalan Warlord

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    Any one playing Civ3 as a war game does not have the faintest idea of what a war game is. Civ3 is a strategy game and as a war game perhaps it is 5% of a war game,as far a war gaming goes.
     
  9. Homie

    Homie Anti-Lefty

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    I can`t understand how some of you don`t consider corruption a problem, and some think it`s a minor problem.

    In all my games on Civ3, playing differant map types, sizes and difficulties I`ve always had a problem with my far-away cities, either they are captured or founded cities. How are you supposed to build the Courthouse when the city only produces 1 shield because the rest is lost to waste. And even if you manage to build it(e.g. by disbanding units), it seems to have an limited affect(almost no affect at all)

    Colonies are only good for one thing, getting the luxuries. So buliding more then the necessary buldings(the Temple) would be a waste of resources and time.

    And many argue that it takes time for corruption and waste to decrease after capturing a city, but it takes TOO long and even when the city is fully recovered and corruption is as little as it can be, there`s still too much. :mad: I have to stop now, or else my head will explode from anger! Just kidding;)
     
  10. eyrei

    eyrei Deity Retired Moderator

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    You can rush the courthouse with either population or preferably gold. Once the city has reached pop 6, if you can get it into WLTK day, it should start to produce a little at least. Add a police station later, and it will probably get to around 50%corruption/waste. Granted, if it is really far from the capital, and you already have a lot of cities, this may not necessarily work for every city. But, I am speaking from my ivory tower, so this will probably not work for anyone else.
     
  11. Caldasar

    Caldasar The Stoneman or LoqDoc

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    Hmmmm... I Hate corruption.. And Resisters,, And some civil disorder too...:mad:
     
  12. BillChin

    BillChin Prince

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    Don't worry, it is only about 20% that support the existing corruption rules exactly as is, and most of those supporters are living in ivory towers :)

    This rumor about time helping with corruption is a myth. Time does not decrease corruption. I cited my example of a 2000 year old city three tiles from the Forbidden Palace. More efficient forms of government, connecting with roads, harbors, courthouses, police stations and Forbidden Palace help with corruption. The majority of players see these options as insufficient or ineffective.

    Unfortunately, it seems likely that there is someone in an ivory tower with their heels dug in on the development team. And he/she just has to have their way at the expense of the fans.

    Please, Firaxis, focus on making the game more fun (without making it too easy). Micro issues and internal politics need to be given the back burner. Look at the big picture of giving a player more options, more choice in strategies, more choice in play styles.
     
  13. marshalljames

    marshalljames XXX

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    I bet money those of you who think corruption is to high are all under 30,I find the corruption is this game very realistic and if you take it as a given and work from that you will be much better of economically,build your culture and you will reduce your corruption.
    Far flung empires of full of corruption,the U.S has one of the most honest and open political systems in the world yet is full of old boy networking,bribery,treachory you name it....Like G.W smiling out of one side of his face while he accepts a check from a socially acceptable member of the Bin Laden Family(huge and rich and well entrenched in the american political structure,don't beleive it check out george's buisness dealings with the Bin Laden family they biult the American Embassy in Arabia?....)
     
  14. keithrc

    keithrc Chieftain

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    I am unaware of how to change this setting, can someone please explain? Does it reqiure a specific patch or editor?

    Please don't tell me to RTFM, I've been through it forwards and backwards!

    Also, I've seen reference made to a "cure corruption" patch, but I didn't see it in the mods and patches forum. Can somebody please direct me to it?

    Thanx!
     
  15. Zachriel

    Zachriel Kaiser

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    Run the editor. It is the other icon in the program folder with civ3.
     
  16. muppet

    muppet Prince

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    Just an addition after you get into the editor:

    1. 'NUMBER of optimal cities' is in the 'world sizes' tab.
    2. 'PERCENTAGE of optimal cities' is in the 'difficulty levels' tab.

    You'll notice the PERCENTAGE drops as the difficulty level goes up.;)
     
  17. Bamspeedy

    Bamspeedy CheeseBob

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    Cullture reduces corruption???? Since when? The only way to combat corruption in this game is to have a VERY solid infrastructure of your core cities so that you can support your hopelessly corrupt cities.

    I totally agree on this. In last game I played, Huge map, I had a city that was making 10 out of 24 shields (58% corruption), and 8/29 gold (72% corrupt). This city was 19 tiles away. Given the fact this was a huge map, this would be like being 6-8 tiles away on a small map. I only had one unhappy person in that city. Later on, when it finally went into WLTK day, it produced 15/26 shields (42% corrupt) and 14/40 gold (65% corrupt), so it appears WTKD only makes about a 10% difference. City had courthouse, police station, marketplace, temple and cathedral in both cases.

    A city just 4 tiles further: 2/15 shields (87% corrupt), 4/42 gold (90% corrupt). Later on I checked and the shields were the same, but gold was 4/44 (91% corrupt). Had all the same improvements as the above city.

    Corruption is a good idea, but it should be maxed out at say 25% (heck, I'd be happy with 50%). I highly doubt Chicago or California mobs back in the 20's took 90% of a cities income.
     
  18. brody

    brody Pathetic Loser

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    I don't know where I sit on the corruption debate. But one thing is for sure, some people whine too much about things which cannot be changed. You either accept it or you don't. That's all there is to it. There's an editor to change it if you want, so change it. Make temples reduce corruption, make aqueduct reduce corruption, etc. Just make sure all the structures that reduce corruption are likely to be built by all computer players as well, otherwise you make the game too easy.

    I LIKE corruption a lot. The idea is great. Without corruption we've got a bad game IMO. Is it over the top? In some cases, yes. I believe each government should have a cap, though not as low as 25%. Despotism should have no cap (c'mon, a huge empire in despotism?), Monarchy maybe 75%, Communism and Republic could both be like 60%, and Democracy like 50%. This cap would apply only once courthouse and police station are built, so a democratic city with neither structure could still be at say 65% corruption... I dunno.

    I do, however, think shield waste should be reduced. I mean, corruption or not, workers will work hard to build up THEIR OWN CITY. Did the American colonies do almost no work on their cities due to their distance from England? I doubt it... the revenue may have been low, but the people still had pride in their cities...

    In any case, those rules aren't likely to ever be adopted by Firaxis, for whatever reason. They've made corruption better already in the patches, so I'd be surprised if they do much more to fix it. So for now I'll just deal with it and if it annoys me too much, I'll change it in the editor.
     
  19. Salvor

    Salvor Warlord

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    I wanna build the Ivory Tower Wonder!!!
     
  20. Alc0p0pz

    Alc0p0pz Chieftain

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    I've read most of the Corruption and Government sections of the War Academy, and I have to say, contrary to what most people seem to have experienced, I've found Communism to be the best Corrpution killer.

    atm, I'm playing to win all six victory types on Standard size maps on Regent difficulty. I got the 2050AD Histograph victory as an Iroquois Communism covering about 50% of the land. With Courthouses, Police Stations, perpetual WLT?Ds (helped by controlling 4/8 luxuries, having the Sistine Chapel and J.S. Bach's Cathedral) all my cities were top notch high production (60-80) with about 10-15% Corruption each.

    So basically from now on, whenever I'll be in control over about 33% of the land, I'll switch to Communism.

    'Cos it's great.

    :D
     

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