[C3C] COTM 162 England Deity

[templar_x]

Really absolutely not happy with this set-up. Sorry, but whatever the idea behind it was, I think it totally failed.

Deity is my favourite level, and I love a challenging start. In an COTM? Less so. A competition always makes the random (luck / unluck) events show. But ok, if there is a good story behind it, maybe even in a COTM. However, I cannot see the story here at all:
-England not being coastal
-having to guess the direction (which I think I did), to find the right settling spot (which I think I did), but then it is still quite the weak start? What is the story here?
-an extra wonder that you have literally no meaningful chance to build
-two Deity AIs very close with you on the starting "continent", which will most certainly attack you at a time when you can hardly be ready for it. And yes, I have played so many Deity games like that, that I am very sure about this.

So, sorry, I won´t continue this game, and I am very critical about this game. But still thanks for putting your time and effort into it, for sure!
t_x

Spoiler :

COTM127
Initial moves:
What a strange Deity start.
Walk towards the river, then worker on mountain, settler to sea, and finally in 3850 i found London next to the bg cow. Still quite weak for Deity…

Builds:
Curragh, gran, then settlers with combo stuff

Science full throttle on Wri

3700 already a Scandinavian warrior finds me
3550 and curragh already finds green borders in the north
3500 trade with Celts, then Ragnar
3350 meet Germany, trade CB
3200 meet Japan
3050 granary built
2850 first settler
2710 2nd town 411
2590 second settler
2550 trade for MAS and trade it to my continent, so that hopefully it will be built there
2510 3rd town 477
2310 settler
2190 4th town 211

Seemingly i am first to Writing

1870 Japan DOWs me, Germany builds Stonehenge
1830 5th town 44447
Wri no longer a monopoly on my continent, now the race starts
Germany also DOWs me
1790 settler
1625 found 1111111
New settler
1575 lose 4th curragh sea battle in a row
Found 88
1550
IBT Celts DOW out of nowhere, no demands! Delays CoL
1525
CoL in, Philo next <10

Losing towns, losing material… the game crashes with F1, and i call this a game. Not a good one though.
I can´t see the idea behind the little food in the core, the off coast start, the extra shields on cow and tobacco, the weakened but extra close neighbours... just can´t see it. so i let it be (even though I still might manage the full Republic sling in this game!).

T_x

 

[LaSalle]

You should tough it out. You are one of the best Civ3 players in the world. Yes, this is a very difficult game and maybe only a few players will be able to claim a victory this time. Isn’t the challenge what it is all about? If almost everyone wins every game, then the challenge probably isn’t hard enough!

 

[templar_x]

You should tough it out. You are one of the best Civ3 players in the world. Yes, this is a very difficult game and maybe only a few players will be able to claim a victory this time. Isn’t the challenge what it is all about? If almost everyone wins every game, then the challenge probably isn’t hard enough!

one could argue that, but it is definitely not the point i made. just read my post again.
again, thanks to the Captain for putting his time and effort into it.
t_x

 

[I. Larkin]

What probability of the GA with Dragoon victories? Will MoW victory triggers GA for sure?

Dragoons (4/4/2): Available at Gunpowder, these heavy mounted units are mobile musketman that dismount to fight, and can trigger a golden age.

 

[Captain_Jack]

What probability of the GA with Dragoon victories? Will MoW victory triggers GA for sure?

Man O' /war will trigger a Golden Age. I didn't know I could set a probability of triggering a Golden Age, so I suppose the Dragoons will do it every time. They did in trial play.

 

[Più Freddo]

I haven't (yet) made the same decision as templar_x, but I didn't have much fun playing for the reasons he mentions. I didn't even try the sling shot. I played the first days of the year. Since then it's on hold. We'll see.

I got the impression that Jack developed the game on a low level and then just hoisted it for us.

 

[Captain_Jack]

Really absolutely not happy with this set-up. Sorry, but whatever the idea behind it was, I think it totally failed.

My Dad gave me this book, and it's very funny. It's a compilation of scathing reviews from theater and the arts edited by Diana Rigg. I hope to add an addendum to it regarding Civ3 game creation!
I was the architect of the England Deity game and, like any actor after opening night, I was hoping for good reviews in the morning paper. Not to be this time, but I do accept the offered criticisms as valid and constructive, and I appreciate and accept them. Hopefully at least one of you will manage a win in this game to prove that it could be done. Good luck!

 

[Captain_Jack]

I got the impression that Jack developed the game on a low level and then just hoisted it for us.

Perhaps true. It played very well at Regent and was actually fun and easy to win. At Deity there would certainly be more difficulties, but I hoped the players would be up for it. The Dragoon was the key unit that I thought would be helpful, I am sorry to disappoint.
Perhaps the difficulty level of the Deity games should be discussed. Certainly the goal is for every game to be fun, but as LaSalle mentioned, should every game be won by almost everyone? Maybe there is a place for a game where most lose and some win. That of course should be up to true Deity-level players. I don't expect to ever win at that level regardless of added bonuses.

 

[I. Larkin]

Anybody else had Dragoon's victory? I like the settings but I want the same conditions as everyone else. Anything I should do except pediaicon.txt substitution?

 

[LaSalle]

I have been able to build dragoons and they are a good unit but do not trigger a golden age. I have had at least 6 dragoons defeat enemy units and no golden age. I triggered my golden age with a Man O' War sinking an enemy ship.

 

[Più Freddo]

Perhaps true. It played very well at Regent and was actually fun and easy to win. At Deity there would certainly be more difficulties, but I hoped the players would be up for it.

This is where you are wrong. It isn't a linear progression. The whole game changes at higher levels. One large difference is that the AI expand much faster in the beginning and build enormous stacks of units. In my opinion, a Deity game must be developed at Deity level.

Maybe there is a place for a game where most lose and some win. That of course should be up to true Deity-level players. I don't expect to ever win at that level regardless of added bonuses.

Sure. Different people have different preferences. Some people will love this game.

I have made some actually unplayable games in the past. It isn't as easy as it seems to design GOTMs. We're grateful for your efforts!

 

[Più Freddo]

It's a compilation of scathing reviews from theater and the arts

Well, as long as we still have scathing reviews, the system might just function as it should. Unfortunately, the Modern Project has in recent years reached a level where all negative feedback, resistance or just personal opinion out of a Nitzschean solitude is being suppressed. At the moment, the Epicureans have it over the Stoics.

 

[Captain_Jack]

Unfortunately, the Modern Project has in recent years reached a level where all negative feedback, resistance or just personal opinion out of a Nitzschean solitude is being suppressed. At the moment, the Epicureans have it over the Stoics.

I think I agree, but I had to look up most of the terms in that sentence to find out what they meant. I am not a philosopher I guess!

 

[Cotta]

4 winning attacks with Dragoons but no GA. Okay, can wait til MoW. Overmore it's a hard piece of work...yes.

 

[templar_x]

Perhaps true. It played very well at Regent and was actually fun and easy to win. At Deity there would certainly be more difficulties, but I hoped the players would be up for it. The Dragoon was the key unit that I thought would be helpful, I am sorry to disappoint.
Perhaps the difficulty level of the Deity games should be discussed. Certainly the goal is for every game to be fun, but as LaSalle mentioned, should every game be won by almost everyone? Maybe there is a place for a game where most lose and some win. That of course should be up to true Deity-level players. I don't expect to ever win at that level regardless of added bonuses.

thanks for being open on this.

as Piu already said, this is a total blunder in how to set up a game. if you invest time to test it, you always have to do that on the level that is will be played. Deity and Regent are maybe even more than different levels, they make that map more like different games.

on Regent, the two AS on the starting continent will be crippled forever. on Deity, they still can spam pop units and military units. with the experience of so many high level games, I would have seen that even without testing. and LaSalle is wrong here, it is not about the challenge, and not about that not everybody is able to win a game, but to make a game independent from random events as good as possible, so mainly the playing skills show. on this continent, it is more or less all about whether and when one of the AS will declare on you...

t_x

 

[LaSalle]

LaSalle is wrong here, it is not about the challenge, and not about that not everybody is able to win a game, but to make a game independent from random events as good as possible, so mainly the playing skills show. on this continent, it is more or less all about whether and when one of the AS will declare on you

I completely agree that random events should eliminated as much as possible. However, a skilled and experienced player should look at the situation and think “I am in real trouble here. I better do everything in my ability just to survive”. This might include prioritizing defence over expansion, searching out civs on other islands for tech trading, and forming an alliance with one AI against the other on the same island. It is definitely a very difficult situation that might take a different strategy than is usually used.

 

[LaSalle]

Also I completely agree that a game needs to be tested at the level it will be played at.

 

[I. Larkin]

I completely agree that random events should eliminated as much as possible.

Actually most random is Philosophy. Normally 1400 BC is enough for the Republic. However, I had a game when 1790 BC (Emperor) it was late. Other events like AI's decision to attack is also random.

This might include prioritizing defense over expansion, searching out civs on other islands for tech trading, and forming an alliance with one AI against the other on the same island.

Yes, things like spearmen in the City reduces risk of sudden attack. In addition I built 3 Temples for 4 Cities.

Spoiler timeline :

Turn 3 : 3900BC
England settled London
->S->SE from start, 1 more move would be better, but noticed it only after.

Turn 31 : 2550BC
England settled York to grab Incense

Turn 39 : 2230BC
England settled Nottingham near the lake

Turn 36 : 1910 BC
Temple in London.
Embassies with Celts and Vikings.

Turn 58 : 1575BC
England settled Hastings, West coast (3 BG).

Turn 60 : 1525BC
CoL in, Phylo in 9 turns.

Contacts: Japan and Germany. Gold - 370, Techs -12.

 

[alfa156]

Very good and chalanging game.
I started several times and do not like:
1) captured cities flip - 3 times in 12-15 turns
2) demand from AI - tech, money.
my strategy - capital on coastal near cow,
First builds - boat, warior, boat, warior, gran, settler, barack. Then loops - war, archer, setler or war, war, worker.
Tech - zero - writing from AI, then max for corth, phil, and free rep.
Upgrade all war to sward and war. Capture colosys from celts.
Middle ages are awful - too many loses on sea battles. Still do not go till MoW
Need to be focus on diplo - brute forse in not enough. I'll start again from begining to avoid mistakes. Actualy start several times and everytime the development is worse .
No temples, just marketplace and libraries

 

[Più Freddo]

I started several times

You do realize that you are not eligible to submit?