COTM 5 : First Spoiler (End of Ancient Age)

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Game of the Month' started by AlanH, Oct 4, 2004.

  1. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Jan 9, 2003
    I'm interested in the economics of temples. A temple costs 1gpt in maintenance and makes one citizen happier, which would cost 1gpt to do with lux tax. So is there any lux tax advantage from temples unless you have the Oracle as well? It's complicated by the fact that lux tax is calculated per city, so a high level of tax may cause unnecessary expenditure in gold-rich cities. But you'll also spend the temple maintenance everywhere, whether you need it or not.

    Bottom line for me is I don't tend to build them unless I definitely want their cultural benefits, either for border expansion or for a cultural victory or to limit flipping. For most situations the shields for a temple don't seem to yield any direct economic or military benefit. But you probably only wasted the shields, not much gold.
  2. WackenOpenAir

    WackenOpenAir Deity

    Sep 16, 2003
    Eindhoven, the Netherlands
    For the balance, it would of course be best to build temples only in the low commerce cities as those normally require the highest lux%. So Temples can balance out those needs a bit.

    Also is a temple made more efficient when you have marketplaces and or banks. The happiness from lux slider costs you a full commerce. While if you put that commerce in tax, it can be more than 1 gold due to the commercial improvements.

    That said, i always advocate not to build any of those happiness buildings before late in the game.
    With those 2 things that make them efficient combined, there still are many things to be build that can be much more profitable (units, barracks, granary, marketplaces)
    only later in the game when you don't have anything more important to build, i advise to build them.
  3. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Jan 9, 2003
    That's true, but I'm first trading off lux tax vs temple maintenance. Doesn't maintenance also come out at base rate, before market and bank multipliers?
  4. Civgeek

    Civgeek Warlord

    Jul 1, 2004
    COTM 05 – Inca (Open)

    Ancient Times (4,000 BC – 50 AD)

    Aiming for Conquest or Domination, but with better city placement and score than I had in COTM 04. Also want to keep technology development slow to try to conquer as much as possible using swords/horses (depending on resources) although don’t think I’ll take-up the AAC challenge.

    Opening Sequence:
    Scout NE, revealing wheat, and then N. Decide to found Cuzco on starting tile to get shield bonus production (Cuzco will have 2 spt) and food bonus (wheat) on expansion. Started researching Ceremonial Burial at max, planning to use Philosophy slingshot to grab Monarchy. Set production to granary. Worker SW to chop forest for granary. Granary completed in 3250 BC, first settler in 3000 BC. (Urrgh; screwed-up micromanagement and Cuzco expanded before granary built. What was I thinking?) Then, despite my pre-game arguments, I built a CS followed by worker, worker then settler every 4 turns. Built barracks in second city, Tiwanaku, then another CS (I just realized how useful they were in covering mountain ranges; even built 2 more later in the game) then warriors. Generated 345 shields in first 50 turns of production from this start, which is an excellent start for me.

    Exploration and Expansion:
    Basically the three scouts explored northwest and northeast, contacting other civs and popping occasional GH. Popped 4 huts. Received, in order, 25 gold, maps, 50 gold, and Literature (in 1000 BC). Also built two curaghs and sent them exploring the coast. Sequence of contacts with other civs was as follows:

    3150 BC Greece
    1990 BC Aztecs
    1650 BC India
    1625 BC Celts
    1550 BC Rome
    1275 BC Japan
    1100 BC Carthage

    Had 11 cities at 1000 BC and 28 cities in 50 AD entering th eMiddle Ages.

    Military Endeavors:
    Switched to Monarchy in 1425 BC after 4-turn anarchy. Wanted to build-up an army and upgrade some troops. After discovering I had built Machu Picchu on the iron, and having no horses, upgraded a bunch of warriors and built a few more swords and declared war on Greece in 775 BC, invading with 15+ swords. Triggered my Golden Age a few turns later by having a CS attack a Greek archer. Captured Athens (and its horses) in 610 BC and eliminated Greece in 130 BC (34 turns was a long war, but they had a final city north beyond the marches near Rome). Hoplites were not as tough as I expected, and even Athens only cost me two swords. Aztecs had conveniently finished ToA a few turns earlier, so immediately declared war on them in 90 BC, attacking with a second army composed of primarily 10+ horses. Bribed Rome and Celts to join us, while Aztecs recruited the sad-sack Indians to their cause. Captured Tenochtitlen and the ToA in 30 BC and entered MA in 50 AD with the completion of the Great Library in Cuzco.

    Technology and Trading:
    Research priority was to get to Monarchy via Philosophy, then basically turn off research. Techs were gained as follows:

    4000 BC Masonry, Pottery (Start)
    3450 BC Ceremonial Burial (Research)
    2750 BC Mysticism (Research)
    2750 BC Alphabet (Trade/Greece)
    1990 BC Bronze Working, Warrior Code (Trade/Aztecs)
    1950 BC Iron Working (Trade/Aztecs)
    1870 BC Polytheism (Research)
    1625 BC The Wheel (Trade/Celts)
    1575 BC Writing (Research)
    1425 BC Philosophy, Monarchy (Research/Bonus)
    1150 BC Horseback Riding (Trade/Celts)
    900 BC Mathematics, Map-Making (Trade/Celts)
    450 BC Code of Laws (Trade/Rome)
    90 BC Currency (Research)
    50 AD Construction, The Republic (Great Library)

    Probably could have done even less research and delayed entry in to MA even further, but even the slow AIs where making some progress, especially Rome, and felt I needed to keep up at least some sort of tech parity.

    Built a couple during my GA and captured another:

    350 BC Pyramids (Built)
    50 BC Temple of Artemis (Aztecs)
    30 AD Great Library (Built)

    Not sure I can even come close to some of the very fast finishes already posted, and will probably have to upgrade to Knights to finish of Japan and Carthage, but hope to finish well before 1000 AD.

    QSC Stats
    11 cities, 28 units;
    1 temple, 1 barracks;
    15 techs known, govt Monarchy
    241 gold.
    203 score

  5. SirPleb

    SirPleb Shaken, not stirred.

    Jan 1, 2002
    Nanaimo BC Canada
    Open Class, going for Ancient Age Conquest.

    Opening Moves

    Like the majority I settled at the start position after moving the scout and seeing the wheat.

    I used a different initial sequence than I've seen anyone else post - my worker first moved west to clear the second plains fur forest, then irrigated, then moved to the wheat without roading any tiles between, then irrigated the wheat. I built a granary first and then a worker who immediately chopped the remaining furs forest.

    My build sequence in Cuzco was granary (3400BC), worker(3300BC), Chasqui(3100), Chasqui(3000), settler(2800), settler(2630 in 4 turns.) At that point Cuzco was exactly size 4.5 and was able to begin an ongoing warrior+settler four turn cycle.


    I wanted to learn Monarchy as quickly as possible. I decided to follow the path Ceremonial Burial, Mysticism, Polytheism, Alphabet, Writing, Philosophy, taking Monarchy as my free tech. I expected to get Alphabet through trade and hoped to get Writing as well.

    It turned out that I didn't even need to trade for Alphabet - I got it from a goody hut. But I did have to research Writing. I learned Ceremonial Burial in 3500, Mysticism in 2710, Polytheism in 1950, Writing in 1675, and Philosophy in 1525.

    As expected I was first to Philosophy. I took Monarchy as my free tech, revolted from "the big picture" and got a six turn anarchy. I revolted again when asked and got the same result.

    I learned Alphabet, Bronze Working, Warrior Code, and Horseback Riding from goody huts so I didn't have to trade for those.

    I did trade for a few techs but not until I felt I needed them or could get them virtually for free, e.g. by trading someone a tech which one of their neighbors already knew. I did not want to trade away any knowledge of substantial value. I wanted the other Civs to have as slow a tech pace as possible. I traded for The Wheel in 2070 (to see where there were horses), Iron Working in 1830 (to see iron), Map Making in 670BC (to build the Great Lighthouse), and Mathematics in 250BC (to be able to see whether a rival advanced to the Middle Ages.) I didn't give away anything in those trades which wasn't already known by other Civs.

    And that was it for tech in my game. I never learned Currency, Construction, Literature, Code Of Laws, or Republic. And none of my rivals ever made it out of Ancient Times though some did get close.


    I expected exploration to be very important for two reasons:
    1) I wanted to know the shape of the world and its geography so that I could plan an efficient approach to conquest.
    2) I wanted to pop as many goody huts as possible. On most maps this is valuable but on this map especially so - in this game I wanted to slow my rivals' research pace. The more huts I got, the less they'd get and the slower they'd be.

    Due to our shield rich start position I chose to produce two Chasquis before even the first settler. These two and the free scout would explore to the most distant parts of the world they could find. I could easily explore nearby lands later on when it was convenient to do so with warriors.

    My scout headed north, the first Chasqui east, and the second Chasqui west. My scout popped two warriors from huts and they helped explore in the north.

    The Chasquis are very good explorers. They only need to use a bit of caution to be almost completely safe from the brain-dead C3C barbarians at Regent level. By 2470BC I'd already explored a fair bit of the map:

    The trail north is my scout with two branches for warriors popped from huts; the other two trails are chasquis.

    My scout eventually ran afoul of a barbarian in 1475. My popped warriors eventually went home. The two Chasquis continued filling in information for a long time. When one of them reached the southern tip of Japan in 1450 he saw land across the water. He stayed there a fair while hoping to hail someone on the other side or get booted over there when Japan expanded her borders. She eventually did but booted him toward home instead.

    In addition to the Chasquis I started coastal exploration as soon as I reasonably could. In 2030BC my first curragh began following the coast clockwise from the coast east of the capital. In 1600 a second curragh started counter-clockwise from the same point. The slow research pace in my game helped these curraghs a lot. They travelled a long way unmolested because no one had learned Map Making and there were no barbarian galleys. In 825BC the second curragh met a Carthage unit and my minimap looked like this:

    That curragh died in an encounter with barbarians a few turns later so I didn't learn much about Carthage for a long time. But I knew enough, I knew where everyone was.

    I popped a total of seven goody huts. Two gave me warriors, four gave me tech, one gave me maps.


    It looks like some people went for extreme rates of early expansion on this map, others have used the highly productive start region to go for smaller but stronger builds including wonders. For a change (I seem to usually be at one of the extremes :lol: ) I did a bit of both.

    I started out in expansion mode. By the time I settled my second city in 2670 I'd seen enough of the local geography to feel sure I'd be wanting a lot of workers. So my second city also built a granary before anything else. After that I focused on settlers and workers for a while, producing some warriors when there would be a shield overun if I produced the other units before growing.

    Initially I intended to take a horseman only approach to conquest. And thus expected that my warriors would end up working as MPs. When I saw in 2070BC that I'd have to fight for horses that changed. So I interrupted Cuzco's four turn cycle to squeeze in a barracks build - the warriors it was producing would be worth upgrading to veteran swordsmen later on.

    In 1910BC I'd seen a fair bit of the world and felt that I'd want a LOT of workers, even for a conquest. And that increased how much I wanted the Pyramids. I wanted them sooner than a Regent AI would build them for me, and I didn't want them built by a far away Civ. So I decided to build them myself. I assigned the task to my second most productive city (not the settler pump!) and joined some workers there.

    In 1250BC I pulled another city out of the expansion task and started in on my Forbidden Palace. I expected Greece to be my first conquest target (horses!) so I built the FP at that side of my core.

    And in 1100BC I pulled a third city out of expansion work. By this date I'd seen enough of the world to make rough plans for conquest. The biggest problem was going to be Carthage. Building a complete road connection from home to the south shore of Japan would take a lot of time. Even with such roads troops would take a very long time to reach Carthage. If the roads were incomplete they'd take longer. It seemed faster to sail troops to Carthage. Especially if there were a shortcut across the large eastern ocean between us and Japan. I thought there was a good chance of such a route if sea tiles and four turn galley movement could be used so I decided to build the Great Lighthouse and began it at this date.

    In the long run it turned out that there was no shortcut to Carthage. Or if there was, I didn't find it. So perhaps my Great Lighthouse build wasn't worthwhile. It wasn't wasted though. The fleet of galleys I sent to Japan and Carthage did get there a fair bit more quickly due to the Lighthouse, and also more safely since they used sea tiles where barbarian galleys would not venture.

    Ideally I wanted my Golden Age to begin around 1100 to 1000BC. I'd been intending to attack the Aztecs to trigger it, then to fight a holding war for a while and to ally Celts against them to keep them occupied. But in 1200BC the Celts demanded a tech. I decided to refuse - better to keep them slow and I'd get some nice reverse war weariness if they declared. Which they did. I sent a few Chasquis to intercept incoming Celt units and trigger a Golden Age but no Celts arrived! By 975BC I decided to give it up, the Celts weren't going to cooperate. I repositioned and declared on Aztecs in 925BC. I had no real military at that date, didn't even have iron connected. I just wanted a Golden Age. And got it immediately after declaring war on the Aztecs. I made peace with Celts and allied them against Aztecs to get these Civs busy wearing each other down. In 900BC India allied with the Aztecs against me. I never saw any real action from either Aztecs or India in this false war stage. I just left them alone and kept building up for the real war later on. I never gave either of them peace either, just stayed quietly at war a long time until I was ready to attack them.

    The Golden Age boosted my final pre-war development nicely. Most of my core cities had barracks. I completed Pyramids in 875BC. I also connected iron at that date, began upgrading warriors (I had 18), and began building swordsmen.

    In 710BC I had 23 swordsmen and was ready to end my buildup phase and begin real war.

    My construction phase did extend a bit further, overlapping my conquest phase a bit. I completed Forbidden Palace in 610BC and completed the Great Lighthouse in 590BC. I built one harbor (to upgrade curraghs prebuilt before Map Making) and that was about it. None of my towns built any improvements other than barracks after this date.

    QSC Status

    At 1000BC I had:
    15 towns with 37 citizens
    2 settlers
    20 workers
    10 warriors, 6 chasquis, 2 curraghs
    3 barracks, 2 granaries
    Pyramids 6 turns from completion
    280g in treasury

    Click here if you'd like a copy of my detailed QSC timeline.

    My world looked like this at 1000BC:

    (continued in next post, split due to post size limit)
  6. SirPleb

    SirPleb Shaken, not stirred.

    Jan 1, 2002
    Nanaimo BC Canada

    In 710BC I had 23 swordsmen and was rapidly producing more with my Golden Age in full swing. It was time to begin the real work. I declared war on Greece and began my attack.

    Hoplites are of course tough defenders, especially when fortified in a hill town such as Athens. But they fell quickly enough before my large force. In 590BC I captured Athens and its horses. Soon afterward, in 530BC, I discontinued swordsman production and built just horsemen for the remainder of the game. When I stopped building swordsmen I had 44 of them.

    In 510BC my world looked like this:

    You can see that I'd already split my swordsmen by this date. My original attack force had continued making progress through Greece. A new group of swordsmen had started into Aztec territory and taken their capital.

    The arrows show how I planned to deploy my forces. Some of my ongoing production would follow the blue path through Greece and Rome. A larger part of my forces would follow the red path through Aztecs and Celts. Each of these two forces would have a group of workers pushing a road ahead, hopefully keeping up with the military advance. Each group would send detachments off the main path to clean up outlying towns without creating roads to them.

    I'd send a larger number of troops on the red path because it could end up eventually extending into Japan, and the timing of that could be the limiting factor on my conquest date. As the red units worked through the Celt territory I'd rebalance the number of new units sent each way. If I felt I had spare units on the blue path some would go east to deal with eastern Rome and India. Otherwise some units coming up the red path would divert westward to handle them.

    The yellow path represents a third split of my forces. A simpler approach would have been to attack Carthage via a short galley hop from Japan after conquering her. But that approach might be slow due to two factors: a) I'd have to road all the way from home through Japan, b) I didn't know how much force would be necessary in Carthage. During the time troops were being sent there from Japan I'd control the rest of the world and home production for many turns near the end of the game would be wasted - a huge number of troops would be in transit but never reach the warfront due to the distance of the connection.

    With the approach I planned, a significant part of my forces would sail toward Carthage instead of following the land route to Japan. Upon reaching Carthage they'd land and do their usual thing. (Kill! Conquer!) I'd supplement my initial assault group with additional units following the yellow path in smaller numbers. At some point I'd find that I'd landed sufficient forces to take Carthage. After taking Carthage any remaining forces from that assault would re-board ships and head back to Japan to invade it from the south. Any excess forces still in transit along the long yellow path would stop short and invade Japan part-way. If the forces I sent along the red path finished off Celts before yellow forces dealt with Carthage and Japan then the red forces would continue extending their road and would enter Japan by land from the north.

    I'd hoped to make a much shorter connection to Carthage than the illustrated path by building the Great Lighthouse. But I didn't find one and my galleys ended up following the path shown.

    In 510BC, the date of the map above, an initial force of 20 swordsmen departed on galleys heading for Carthage. I was down to about a dozen swordsmen on my original blue path and had about a dozen of my newer swordsmen started on the red path.

    For a while all of my newly produced horsemen were sent on the blue and red paths.

    In 390BC I cancelled my alliance with Celts, eliminated the Aztecs, declared war on Celts, and continued on the red path into them. Soon afterward the Celts allied Japan against me which was fine. It just increased my people's happiness.

    In 310BC I finally started sending some horsemen from the homeland to follow the swordsmen sailing for Carthage. From this date on I sent a trickle of horsemen following along the yellow path, about one galley per turn.

    In 270BC I eliminated Greece.

    In 230BC my first 8 galleys (carrying 16 swordsmen) arrived at the south of Japan near Carthage. I still knew little of Carthage's lands. I purchased an embassy to find her capital and my galleys then sailed west toward it.

    In 210BC I declared war on Rome and in 190BC on Carthage. At that date I had 49 horsemen and 40 swordsmen, and my map looked like this:

    I'd been limited for a while by my development of roads along the blue and red paths, should have allocated even more workers to them from an earlier date. At this date a lot of my forces had reached the Roman and Celt borders anyway.

    Carthage's Numidian Mercenaries were tough even for swordsmen. It didn't help that three of her towns were built on hills. Fortunately Carthage had very few defenders - I was surprised to find that her capital had just two. She was very weak overall, especially vs. 20 invading swordsmen. The barbarian camps I found in her territory might have contributed to that.

    I found that using my galleys to move my swordsmen around Carthage was faster in many cases than having them travel by land, an interesting discovery.

    In 10BC I eliminated both India and Carthage. I began bunching my horsemen sailing toward Carthage together. They would now directly invade Japan - the original sailing of twenty swordsmen had sufficed to take out all of Carthage. Some of those swordsmen would be returning to help with the invasion of Japan. At this date I had 73 horsemen, 25 swordsmen, and my map looked like this:

    At this point I had enough units arriving on my original blue vector, especially when combined with what I'd probably over-estimated as western diversions of my red vector, to finish off Rome. (Despite her annoying habit of fortifying Legionairies at strong points.)

    In 70AD I eliminated the Celts. My map was as below - you can see the beginnings of my invasion of Japan with the landing of troops which were previously in transit as backups to the Carthage invasion:

    At this date I had 73 horsemen, 19 swordsmen, 20 galleys, 4 chasquis, and 35 native workers.

    In 90AD I took Japan's capital with Temple of Artemis. I'd stayed ahead of all other rivals in culture just due to the wonders I'd built. But Japan had a rapidly increasing lead. This capture turned that around. I lost this city once due to a culture flip, soon recaptured it, and that was the end of cultural impact in my game. The captured Temple Of Artemis soon resulted in me being well ahead in culture.

    Around this time I had some rushed galleys patrolling Rome's remaining coastline - I did not want her escaping my land invasion with a settler in a galley. Japan was safer in this regard, I already had galleys patrolling her coasts.

    In 190AD I eliminated Rome. And finally (after a couple of tedious moves to get troops in position along her eastern coast) in 230AD I took Japan's last city to get a 250AD conquest victory.


    Because of the number of workers and warriors, combined with the amount of micromanagement, my QSC timeline this month may be the longest I've written. If anyone reads all of it I'll be surpised, there's too much there :)

    I found short rushing to be extremely valuable this month. I had quite a few cities which were running at 10 shields per turn. (Different ones during Golden Age vs. afterward of course. I had a few at 15/turn during Golden Age, just one for most of the time after the Golden Age.) A city producing 10s/turn can build a horseman (or a galley or swordsman) in two turns by: at the end of the first turn when it has 10s in the bin change production to spearman, rush that, then change production back to original. This is a very efficient way to rush with gold.

    Leaders: I didn't work to farm them. I just rammed forward with whatever units I had to make the fastest inroads I could. Fittingly I didn't have great leader luck - got my one and only leader in 50BC. He rushed an army and I loaded it with swordsmen but it saw little action, participating in only one fight.

    And at last Sandman2003's question, I hope paraphrased acceptably: Would an unrestricted (i.e. Knights or Cavalry) conquest approach have been faster than AAC? I don't know. I'd have to play it both ways to even guess, and then I doubt I'd have an absolute answer, I'd probably be saying that it depends, on an initial gamble, hut luck, and/or something else. I do think that either way (AAC or Knights) a BC conquest would be possible. I'm dubious about a Cavalry approach accomplishing that but can't even rule that out for certain.
  7. valamas

    valamas Prince

    Dec 10, 2003
    Sydney, Australia

    I found the chasqui Scout most useful. Lots of mountains to go flying over so it was fun. I built 3, and when I was done exploring, i used them to attack barbarians over mountains! Getting my GA proved difficult. I tried to use my scout to attack but the inopportune mountains continued my failures. I was finding it hard to justify building more and started looking for wonders that could trigger my GA. With the help of catapults, i finally defeated a roman warrior!

    So i think I made the right decision to build them. I chopped some forrest to help build them. In the last COTM, mayans, I think I made the right decision to go for slaves. I ended up with over 60 slaves and never had to pay for a worker. Estimate: 250 turns for 20 workers in democracy would have costed 5000.

    Incans rock!

    QSC in the print screens for 1000BC and a print screen for my kingdom.

    Attached Files:

  8. DJMGator13

    DJMGator13 Wondering why Builders can't build Roads

    Jan 20, 2004
    Leesburg, FL
    I decide to settle in place after moving the scout NE and finding the wheat. Not heeding Darkness’ observation about the GH distribution I made the mistake of playing GH Roulette by building Cscout (3650BC) / Cscout (3450BC) / settler (3150BC) / warrior (3000BC) / granary (2550BC). As everyone now knows there were limited GHs in this game. I did manage 2 techs from huts and one warrior. I also got 2 or 3 worthless maps each removing about 3 tiles of fog.

    The plus side of this venture was I had a very extensive World Map with 3 scouts running around. Contacts acquired in the following years:
    AZT – 3400BC
    Big Oops – 2850BC – I pass by the CELT border without officially meeting them
    GRK – 2800BC
    JPN – 2070BC
    ROM – 1990BC
    IND – 1650BC
    CELT – 1600BC – officially meet them on way back from JPN lands

    I ran my research at a maximum for most of this time period. I started with CB thinking I might join the AAC guys and wanted to beeline towards Monarchy. But after seeing no horses and the tech lead I had on everyone I decided to push for knights. I researched 6 techs on my own. Here are the techs I learned and how I acquired them.

    POT - 4000BC start
    MAS - 4000BC start
    CB - 3450BC researched
    WC - 3400BC trade
    BW - 3150BC from GH
    MYST - 2800BC researched
    IW - 2800BC from GH
    ALPHA - 2800BC from Trade
    WHEEL - 2350BC trade
    WRIT - 2230BC researched
    HBR - 1790BC trade
    POLY - 1625BC researched
    MATH - 1600BC trade
    PHIL - 1425 researched
    MONA - 1425 free from PHIL
    CONST - 1000BC researched
    MAPM - 1000BC trade

    QSC Summary
    12 cities
    144 tiles
    35 Pop

    City Improvements
    1 granary
    4 barracks

    1 settler
    12 workers
    1 slave worker
    1 archer
    2 swords
    10 warriors
    1 Cscout
    1 Curragh
    Lost 1 scout to a Bhorse and a Csout who got Volcanoed

    Speaking of getting Volcanoed I saw a GRK city get burn to a crisp.

    Rest of the AA

    After the QSC period I stop making settlers and start on my military. I became a Monarchy in 1325BC. There was no early warfare for me and I settled a city on an iron source and cut off my ability to go with a warrior to sword upgrade. I ended up building all my swords. I issue a DOW on Greece in 650BC, capture Sparta the same turn and enter the Middle Ages in 610BC.

    I end the AA with 14 cities.

    My military now consists of 19 workers, 10 warriors, 1 archer, 2 spears, 13 swords, 1 galley, and 1 curragh.

  9. Sandman2003

    Sandman2003 Prince

    Sep 25, 2003
    If its a marginal call when faced with four of the worst civs for pulling off the AAC, I guess I will have to try it myself next time we do a pangea on an easy enough level, and on a standard or smaller map. Thanks for another detailed and interesting account of your game, SirPleb.
  10. Teshik

    Teshik Chieftain

    Jul 10, 2004
    Open Class

    Since about everyone here goes for domination or conquest, I set my goal to a spaceship victory, just to be different. ;) At least among the three or so players going for it, I'll get the medal for "lowest scoring spaceship" :lol:

    opening Moves :
    after discovering the Wheat, I settled north of my starting position and built a few warriors before starting with settlers-spearman combination.

    met the greeks early and traded everything with them. Since I really really really don't like fighting hoplites in AA, I'll give them a better start than others, thereby giving me the chance to trade for a few techs later because I'll end up doing most of the research myself anyway.

    around 2700bc, i met the aztecs. since their UU is about as strong as mine, and greeks and aztecs are the only choices right now, they are my first victim (I did say spaceship, but I didn't say I won't have a little fun along the way ;) ) They also have their second city next to my warrior, without any defense. Since I don't have the military right now and I don't want Greece to settle on my fertile grounds, I decide to cripple Aztecs first, run into Tlatelolco or whatever and raze it(the razing part was unintentional :sad: ) . My warrior turns north towards Tenochtitlan, and because Montezuma hasn't got a clue, he doesn't realize how easy it is for his two archers and two warriors to defeat me, and makes peace, giving me 43 gold and a worker. I know from experience he will continue expansion, but will be substantially weaker, so I'll harvest him when I get medieval.

    I also tried the republic slingshot for the first time, entering Republic in 1000bc. the up side : more trade, and money, for me. down side: i don't have any temples right now, so that cripples the growth beyond size 3/4. Next time, I'll experiment a bit more with the luxury rate.

    the rest of ancient age goes quietly. The AI busies itself with wonders, I fill up my valley with cities, and wait for someone to declare war to me. The only bad point : I thought the Greeks would build the Pyramids, but of all civs, Carthage beat them to it. :mad: So much for getting that wonder easily... :cry:

    Next on, when I completed MA : shopping spree in Aztec territory, bad bad mediterranean civs, and who knows what else :mischief:

    screenshots (I hope these work) :

    ETA: hmmm...stupid newbie question : how do I get the screenshots in the post, not via link?
  11. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Jan 9, 2003
    Terrific posting, SirPleb! Some great lessons for all of us in there. :thanx:
  12. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Jan 9, 2003
    Not stupid at all ;) It's not obvious.

    A single screenshot will display if you do what you did.

    If you have more than one you have to upload them to the server using the Upload File link at the bottom of every page.

    Then edit your post and insert their urls in the post text where you want them to appear, between [img] ... [/img] tags. There's a little image icon above the editing box if you want the img tags to be created automatically for you.

    The urls are I'm lazy, and I get the urls by selecting 'View Current Upload Folder 8",

    and right clicking my file name in the listing to copy /paste it into my text.

    You can see how it's done by clicking 'Quote' on a post that has some images (like this one ;) ) and looking at the poster's original text.
  13. BLubmuz

    BLubmuz HoF Quattromaster

    Sep 14, 2004
    Vicenza, Italy
    Thank you for your specification, in fact this is the first time I build a FP so far from my Palace.
    Anyway its' not in Rome, but in city a bit closest to my core.
    I experienced a minor effect in other C3C games, but never so useless.
    I end COTM01 right now (of course, not for submission) and building FP closest it works near PTW (perhaps due to the commercial trait?).

    Would you explain me better how this works?

    Thanks again, ciao.
  14. Offa

    Offa Bretwalda

    Feb 3, 2002
    @SirPleb: great write up even by your standards. It does explain your actions in a particularly lucid way. :goodjob:

    Building the Pyramids, monarchy and sea travel to Carthage were all good moves which I wish I had made. In retrospect the problem was always going to be reaching the AI, not destroying them.
  15. solenoozerec

    solenoozerec Stranger

    Jan 23, 2004
    I am not sure that I understand this point :confused: .
    1. Tech cost depends on how many civs know this tech. Therefore, the more you know the faster AI research is.
    2. The probability of getting tech from goody hut is higher for expansionist civs. I think none of our rivals was expansionist.
    3. If goody huts are taken by several different civs there is a good chance that they will be getting the same tech from different huts.

    So in general, if all goody huts are taken by different non-expansionist civilizations less amount of tech will be obtained on this particular world.
    In addition, AI is a lousy explorer, particularly on low levels. In other games I was noticing goody huts next to AI borders that they did not touch at all.

    My question is: Are you sure that taking as many goody huts as possible is a right strategy to slow down research pace in this particular world?

    I found only one goody hut (I was not avoiding them, but I also didn't hunt for them). I finished game at 490AD. I did not interfere with Japan and Carthage, but I am almost sure that they did not reach MA.
    My attitude towards research was more of Homo erectus than of Homo sapience. I believed that the less I know the less AI will know. It seemed to me that it worked out well.
  16. Lord British

    Lord British Britain's Finest

    Jun 29, 2004
    Six Feet Under
    By Sirpleb:

    Thanks for this helpful tip Sirpleb. :goodjob: Its something I don't think I would have thought of and I will use it in my next game. I have always money rushed when I can afford it and have always been peeved that the shields for that turn have been wasted when rushing.

    Enjoyed your analysis on your game!! :)
  17. valamas

    valamas Prince

    Dec 10, 2003
    Sydney, Australia
    There's treasure in dar hills. Arrrrg! :D

    I love when Rome builds Pompeii in a safe spot. Happens frequently in my games and the city always survives!
  18. EsatP

    EsatP Chieftain

    Jan 9, 2003
    Open 1.22f

    3950 BC wheel cuzco->granary
    3700 BC alphbet (greek)+10G <-> masonry+pottery
    3250 BC cuzco granary->warrior
    3150 BC wheel->writing cuzco: warrior-> settler
    3050 BC huts near Rome->ceremonial burial
    3000 BC Rome: bronze working+10G <-> masonry, Wheel <-> warrior code
    2950 BC cuzco: settler->warrior
    2850 BC huts near Rome->mysticism cuzco: warrior-> settler
    2750 BC fouded Tiwanaku: -> settler
    2670 BC cuzco: settler->warrior
    2590 BC greece: iron working <-> ceremonial burial+wheel cuzco: warrior-> settler
    2550 BC huts -> horseback riding fouded Mauchu Piccu: -> settler
    2430 BC cuzco: settler->temple
    2390 BC contact Indian
    2350 BC writing->code of laws
    2270 BC founded Ollntaymbo (on Iron)
    2230 BC 25G barb
    2150 BC Cuzco - disorder, Tiwanaku: settler-> settler
    2110 BC 25G barb
    2070 BC cuzco: temple->settler
    1990 BC founded Corihuyrachina: ->worker
    1950 BC cotact Celts: masonry <-> worker+5G Mauchu Piccu: settler -> settler
    1910 BC cuzco: settler->warrior, Ollntaymbo: scout -> worker
    1830 BC code of laws -> philosophy cuzco: warrior-> settler, 25G from huts
    1790 BC contact Aztecs masonry <-> 35G, Rome writing <-> worker, Indian masonry <-> 35G founded Huamanga: worker
    1725 BC founded Vilcas: worker
    1700 BC Ollntaymbo: worker->settler
    1650 BC philosophy->republic->polyteism, greece: horseback riding+writing <-> mathematics+50G Corihuyrachina: worker ->warrior
    1625 BC greece: code of laws <-> worker founded Vilcabamba: warrior
    1600 BC 25G barb
    1525 BC Republic scout killed, Tiwanaku: settler-> warrior
    1475 BC cuzco: settler->spearman
    1450 BC Huamanga: worker->worker
    1425 BC Mauchu Piccu: settler -> temple, founded Vitcos -> warrior, 25G barb
    1400 BC Corihuyrachina: warrior -> settler, Cuzco spearman -> barracks
    1350 BC polyteism -> monarchy founded Andahuaylas -> worker
    1325 BC Aztecs writing <-> 64G founded Ica -> worker, cuzco: change barracks -> Temple of Artemis, Vitcos: warrior -> Settler
    1275 BC Ollntaymbo: settler->settler, Huamanga: worker->baracks, Vilcabamba: warrior->barracks
    1250 BC Andahuaylas: worker-> barracks
    1150 BC founded Arequipa -barracks
    1125 BC 25G barb
    1100 BC Celts: writing <-> 44G, Monarchy->Currency
    1075 BC Tiwanaku: settler-> barracks
    1050 BC Ollntaymbo: settler->barracks, Corihuyrachina: settler->barracks
    1000 BC founded Nasca -> barracks
    13 cities, CM = 242 (best)
    720 BC MA

    Is it enough for QSC, or no?
  19. AlanH

    AlanH Mac addict, php monkey Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

    Jan 9, 2003
    It certainly is. Well done :thumbsup:
  20. killerloop

    killerloop Warlord

    Jun 8, 2003
    COTM05 Inca open

    Beforte I start some recognitions:

    Dinanthus: for his Mapstat program. 1st time I used it, and I cannot live without it anymore. I&#8217;m normally too lazy to check all civs every turn. Now I got 3 slaves, and 2 sciences immediately when available. GREAT!
    Ainwood: another great game. I really liked the start location, lots of possibilities there to start.

    QSC write up

    4000 BC
    Scout moves N-NE to hills and discovers Sugar & Wheat. Pause & print screen.
    Spent almost 2 evenings to define next steps. Finally decided to settle in place. My calcs show this makes it possible to get a 4 turn (size 4.5 to 6.5) warrior-settler factory up and running by 2710. This is what I did:

    -Building sequence: Warrior (3850), C-Scout (3700), Worker (3600), Granary (30350), Settler (2850), C-scout (2710), then warrior/settler factory.
    -Worker 1: W, chops, irrigates, moves S, chops, moves NE, chops, mines
    -Worker 2: E, NE, irrigates, W, W, chops, W, mines

    Alternative was to settle NE, to get the wheat in initial range, but the 4 turn settler factory there only works size 5.5 to 7.5, needing higher happiness. Also the 2 shields per turn the start location gives, makes it possible to get some early scouting units. Helpfull, as we are the only expansionist trait.

    Research CB at zero. Will stay zero till I hopefully pop Writing

    3550 BC Scout 1 discovers dyes N of Cuzco.
    3350 BC Scout 1 meets Aztecs at Tenochtitlan (polite) and we trade Masonry for WC & 10 gold.
    3300 BC Warrior 1 meets Greek (cautious) and we trade WC, Masonry & Pottery for Alphabet, BW & 10 gold.
    3200 BC Scout 1 pops hut NW of Tenochtitlan &#8211; settler! :) Will try to get him settle on the dyes.
    3000 BC Scout 2 pops The Wheel from hut
    2950 BC Scout 1 pops village from hut (Tiwanaku)
    2900 BC Scout 2 pops HBR from hut and sees Entremont (Celts)
    2850 BC Trade with Celts (polite) Masonry & WC for CB, slave & 5 gold
    2750 BC Scout 2 pops Mysticism from hut (forgot to change research goal :( , which will stay on Mathmatics now. Scout 1 meets Roman settler (annoyed).
    2710 BC Build 1st town from own build settler: Machu Picchu.
    2670 BC Pop Writing from hut. Start research CoL at full (affordable) speed &#8211; 22 turns. Popped settler finally settles on Dyes.
    2550 BC Scout 1 meets India (polite). Greek know writing.
    2510 BC Trade Masonry & Pottery for Slave & 10 gold with India. Rush a c-scout in Tiwanaku.
    2430 BC Pop Literature from hut. Trade Pottery for slave & 10 gold with Rome.
    2390 BC Build 5th town.
    2230 BC Pop Iron Working from hut.
    2190 BC Scout 2 meets Japan (annoyed).
    2110 BC Learn CoL. Switch to Philosophy &#8211; 6 turns.
    2030 BC Build 6th town.
    1950 BC Lost scout 1 to barbs.
    1870 BC Learn Philosophy and Republic. Change to Polytheism. Draw a 6 turn revolt. Pop Mathematics from hut. Change to Construction
    1830 BC Aztecs declare war ?????
    1675 BC Inca society becomes republic. Build 8th town. Trade Pottery for 25 gold with Rome.
    1650 BC Lost 2nd C-scout to barbs :( .
    1575 BC Inca & Aztecs sign peace treaty. No fight was ever fought. Still Aztecs pay me 20 gold for the peace treaty.
    1550 BC Another Scout lost :( , now to Vulcano. Trade Pottery for 10 gold with Japan.
    1525 BC Trade Writing for 3 gold to Japan. Will they research Mapmaking?
    1475 BC Give Writing to Greece, in the hope they research Mapmaking.
    1425 BC My scout south of Japan gets its waiting rewarded. A Carthaginian archer passes by on the other coast. We trade Writing for 10 gold.
    1400 BC Construction learned. Change to Currency &#8211; 9 turns.
    1350 BC Upgrade 1st warriors (3) to swordsmen.
    1325 BC It&#8217;s the Aztecs that have Mapmaking 1st :) . I trade 1st CB for 30 gold. Then, Literature, Mathmatics & Mysticism for Mapmaking.
    1275 BC Trade Alphabet for 25 gold with Celts
    1200 BC Currency learned. Change Polytheism &#8211; 7 turns.
    1125 BC Build 12th town. Open embassy in Athens. As expected 3 hoplites here. They still need 27 turns to finish their Pyramids.
    1075 BC Build 13th town. Greece has Polytheism. Trade Literature, Philosophy & 8 gold for Polytheism. Enter Middle Ages. Change to Feudalism &#8211; 23 turns.
    1050 BC Have the dyes connected. Enter Greek territory with 8 swords & 3 archers.
    1025 BC Declare war with Greek.
    1000 BC Build 14h town. Machu Picchu finishes Pyramids. I take Athens & destroy Thermopylae. Take 6 slaves.

    QSC results:

    Cities: 15 with 52 pop
    Units: 1 settler, 10 workers, 2 warriors, 3 archers, 2 spearmen, 10 swordsmen, 2 curraghs, 9 slaves.
    Contacts: All. Embassy with Greece.
    Science: All AA sciences except Monarchy.
    Buildings: 1 temple, 1 granary, 2 barracks.
    Wonders: Pyramids owned. No other wonders are build yet.
    Government: Republic
    Culture: 259 (1st); Japan 163 (2nd)
    Gold: 37
    Furthermore I have 46% of the world population :king:

    Game observations:

    -NO #/&%/$ HORSES in vicinity, nearest are UNDERNEATH Athens. Great work, Ainwood :devil2: !
    -Scouts were worth building: Popped 9 huts, met all other civs, and, yeah, lost 3 of them.
    -Other civs develop very slowly, in science, as well, in settling. At 1000 BC: India &#8211; 3 towns, Carthago &#8211; 4 towns, Greece &#8211; 5 towns (now 3 :lol: ). Saw a lot of barbs, could be the reason.
    -Should have build another town closer to Cuzco. Wasted quite some shields & food at the later stage of the QSC-period. The initial hill probably would have been a good spot.
    -Phony war with Aztecs. No fights. The ways of the AI are still wonderous to me. :confused:

    Next steps:

    -Connect the horses, then knights and conquer.
    -Trigger GA asap
    -Greece: 1st make peace, gift them into MA, trade for their free tech, and then finish them off. Forgot to do this before going to war :(.

    Had the same problem as SirPleb. I kept a detailed log of all moves till I had finished my warrior/settler factory. After that I stopped as with all units it became to elaborate to note all steps.

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